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That useless unit or unit type... WFB Edition
Just Tony
I was listbuilding at work while my machine was running, and I was trying to bump up my list without making compromises. I own 10 Shadow Warriors and they would have been a perfect fit, but I couldn't bring myself to put them in. In my mind Skirmishers are about the worst point sink in 6th, with Scout being the only real benefit, and that makes their longbows more of a liability at close range than a standard archer unit in the back of the field. Not being able to have ranks OR cancel ranks from a unit makes them garbage flankers, and at the high points cost, even war machine hunting isn't all that viable.

Had this been 7th, then Swarms would have been the default choice. The second they got crumble like the undead, they became MORE than worthless. So a high points cost model with no CR bonuses at all takes wounds for every bit of CR it loses by? Also worth mentioning the fact that they are normally NOT powerhouses in WS, S, or T.

Also, I can't understand why anyone would run a unit with halberds if there was any other option. Losing their shield in combat for +1S? Why not go for great weapons, which are normally the same price, and get the +2? I realize going last is an issue, but it only becomes an issue in protracted combat. On the charge you go first, getting charged you're already going last anyway. Most units (not all, I realize) who have a halberd option also have a spear option. Fight in two ranks? Who would pass that up for +1S?


What are your thoughts? What is that one or more unit that you can never bring yourself to run?
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
snyggejygge
I Think you underestimate the halberd, yes on normal humans a GW is often better, but on certain troops with high iniative the halberd is really great.
Example: Chaos warriors of Khorne with Shields & halberds (no matter if chosen or not).
If you get charged, you use the shield in the first round for a 3+ save (2+ if you have chaos armour), so few casulties, then second turn due to high iniative of 5, you strike first with the halberds, S5 is dangerous even for cavalry.
High Strength is usually better than more attacks, even on speararmed troops.

As for units I'd never take, well skirmishers overall is bad unless they're really cheap, have specialrules (beastherds) or you have tons of them with high Movement & shooting (skinks)
 
Just Tony
Don't get me wrong, Gors were really good with halberds, but since I'm sticking with 6th that window is gone unless I go with Ravening Hordes. And let's face it, the entire rest of the list was worse in Ravening Hordes compared to the BOC book. The only issue I had with that book at all was the Chaos combined forces garbage, and some issues with stuff being Core when it should have been Special in every one of the books.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
Geep
I never understood Wood Elf Scouts in 6th/7th. You pay a fair amount of points to lose their special longbow ability- in order to put them into a position where it would have been really handy! Waywatchers were so much better- you'd have to be very tight on points or composition to make that swap.

The Great Cave Squig also seemed crazy to me. It's not cheap, hard to support (with random movement), and delivers a sub-par Goblin character into the enemy's hands. Sure it did some damage, but never enough.

Having played Wood Elves since 4th ed, I was very, very envious of Halberds (though admittedly more envious of Crossbows). Anything that broke out of the massed-strength-3 rut that Wood Elves had going back then (I couldn't afford many Dryads or monsters).

If you get charged, you use the shield in the first round for a 3+ save (2+ if you have chaos armour), so few casulties, then second turn due to high iniative of 5, you strike first with the halberds, S5 is dangerous even for cavalry.

Was this allowed in 6th? I forget which editions allowed you to swap weapons during combats. I think in 7th you had to choose at the start of a combat, and couldn't change until it was fully resolved (though units with special rules like Black Orcs made that a heated debate), and I know in 8th you had to use any special weapon you had- which, again, made things fun for Black Orcs.
 
snyggejygge
Yes, it was the only thing that made warriors playable in a meta where Chaos Knights were overall much better.

I played a Hammer & Anvil tactic with my Chaos army, therefore I actually used infantry, but said infantry had to use Shields & halberds to be worthwhile in combat due to the high amount of 1+ saves available back then, absorb the charge, strike back hard in the following rounds, let the Knights take care of the survivors.
It was changed with 7:th edition the way you describe it, now you fought the whole combat with the chosen weapon & in 8:th you were forced to use the special weapon even though it was tactically smarter to some times use a shield....

@Tony: Halberds were great on Gors when they had 2 wounds each, still a decent choice in Ravening Hordes, I miss that option in Beasts of Chaos (especially since I had 20+ of the plastic gors).
I agree on the chaos list, I liked that you could combine lists, but the way they did it was awful, chosen Chaos Knights as core or even as a specialchoice was too good (should be rare just like Grail Knigths) & the internal balance was way off as well, Beastherds was the best infantry by far, no reason to ever take marauders or any of the daemons instead of them, only Bestigors & Chaos warriors could compete & they had a very different role.
 
TinyLegions
snyggejygge wrote:

I Think you underestimate the halberd, yes on normal humans a GW is often better, but on certain troops with high iniative the halberd is really great.
Example: Chaos warriors of Khorne with Shields & halberds (no matter if chosen or not).
If you get charged, you use the shield in the first round for a 3+ save (2+ if you have chaos armour), so few casulties, then second turn due to high iniative of 5, you strike first with the halberds, S5 is dangerous even for cavalry.
High Strength is usually better than more attacks, even on speararmed troops.



I had to look this up in the 6ed book. "Whichever weapons they use must be used for the entire combat" - p88

I interpret that to be for as long as they are engaged in combat whether it is one or six turns of the game. If there is a different interpretation in the errata, than I would definitely like to see where that is.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
TinyLegions
To answer you question Tony, I would be of a mind that it depends on what you are doing with the "useless" unit and what you expect from them. I recall watching one game where a guy was playing Skaven and a few of his units which were slaves or giant rats, not sure which, was dropping like flies. He made a flippant remark of "Just 60 pts" and went about his business with the rest of the game. Similarly I played a guy that was running a few wolf riders in his Orc and Goblin army. Little did I know until it was too late that they were bait units; I was still new to the game back then. Those little units were 60 pts as well I recall. My point in all this is, does this unit have a purpose and does it fit into the way that you want to play this game. For these two players they did provide a purpose, but they were throw away units that they basically put on the board only to take them off after turn one or two.

Take your Shadow warriors. I agree that they are not optimal for CC and they should not be in CC unless they have to, even against Dark Elves. However, assuming that you are keeping score, having five of them tucked away in some terrain, is worth 175 victory points. 100 for the table quarter and 75 for the unit. Your opponent either cedes that table quarter and leaves that unit alone or spends resources trying to kill them in magic, shooting, or the worse is to send a unit after them. Those resources could have been used going after your main line units. Given the right condition, you can use them as a bait and flee unit and see if your opponent takes the bait. 75 pts is not that much more than 60 and if they get a frenzied unit to go where you want them, than that alone is worth it.

I have learned that the hard way as a dwarf player that sometimes I cant pick both options and I have to go after the main army and leave the Skirmishers alone. They get that table quarter from me, or worse contest one of my table quarters that was locked down, and what was a major victory for me turns out to be a stalemate. I have also learned that, yes skirmishers may not be as good as flyers in taking out my war machines, but they make a hell of a mess of things, and that is a reason why I have a Runesmith with a GW in the back at all times.

One of the worst units that the dwarves have is arguably the rangers. They are lightly armoured and expensive, and there are better units out there for the points. However, if the conditions are right they can be useful. If they can get into a woods close enough to launch Fanatics out of Night Goblin hordes on the first turn, than they are worth every point. If you main line is moving fast enough they end up being great flankers.

I rarely take my rangers out to a game, but when I do I prefer Bugman's. Stay Thirsty my friends.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
elendor
I am not sure if this was mentioned but Skirmisher + Explorer is the best combination to deny marches, 5 Shadow Warriors can delay the movement of a far more expensive unit (which Giant Eagles can't do because they don't have US 5 if I remember correctly).

I rarely bring Shadow Warriors because they use a Special slot and I prefer Reavers or Chariots as Elven light troops, but I don't think Shadow Warriors are useless.
They can probably shine in their march block role if you have a defensive army list with decent shooting and magic.

For war machine hunting 5 SW maybe won't kill the crew in one turn but they prevent it from shooting anyway.

That said, Elves with longbows are a bit overcosted in 6ed.
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
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