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4th/5th Fandom
Galadrin
So, who here started this hobby in either of the 90's editions? Do you or would you still play 4th or 5th? What do these versions do better than later ones?

I'll go first: card magic was awesome. I loved being able to slap the magic item card right down on the table next to the hero or regiment (in the case of a banner). The spells were also terrific, with tons of different schools (particularly in 4th edition, between the arcane and battle magic boxes). The card mini-game did slow things down slightly, but was fun in its own right. No other edition accessorized quite like 4th/5th, and that was largely due to the cards, tokens and templates that came with the magic system.
 
Just Tony
Picked up 5th along with the HE and Bret books. Almost got to start playing it when I heard about 6th coming out, so I held off until that edition hit. Liked the mechanics better, so I went with that. No regrets.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
Horace
Galadrin wrote:

So, who here started this hobby in either of the 90's editions? Do you or would you still play 4th or 5th? What do these versions do better than later ones?

I'll go first: card magic was awesome. I loved being able to slap the magic item card right down on the table next to the hero or regiment (in the case of a banner). The spells were also terrific, with tons of different schools (particularly in 4th edition, between the arcane and battle magic boxes). The card mini-game did slow things down slightly, but was fun in its own right. No other edition accessorized quite like 4th/5th, and that was largely due to the cards, tokens and templates that came with the magic system.


I'm sensing a glitch in the matrix.. Smile

I totally agree regarding the card magic, dice just seems a bit nothing-y to me.

I preferred a lot of the art in the army books too, the build quality of the 8th hard backs with more of the 90's art would be perfect for me.

I also have a soft spot for a lot of the models from this period. They are not ALL brilliant and I do still like a lot of the newer stuff (but I also hate a lot of it). Managed to nab a few ebay lots recently of some Ironbreakers, Hammerers & White Lions. Happy times Smile

I don't however play these editions anymore. I wouldn't be averse to playing them I just don't have the stuff. Played the first few games of the Grudge of Drong last week but with 8th rules
 
snyggejygge
I started in 94, it was a friend who introduced me via the HE vs Goblins starter.

Sometimes an old friend of mine who started playing in 98 get together to play a game of 5:th edition due to nostalgia, we use the same rules our tournament organizer did back then:

* 2000 pts army, no single model costing more than 600 pts
* No magic items costing more than 50 pts
* No Power 3 spells
* No allies

I loved 4:th & 5:th edition, but when replaying them I realize just how unbalanced the game really is (though we still have fun).

Card based spells & magic items was fun in its own way, but overall not really needed & just complicated.
I admit having fond memories of high level spellcasters surviving due to the Escape card plenty of times, as well as jumping out of joy when my mate put his Amon Chakai (greater daemon of Tzeentch special character)into basecontact with my human hero with Black Gem of Gnar & Heart of woe, seeing him removed for 4 turns & when he returns die due to the explosion, however no matter how fun that arms race was, some spells & armies was just so unbalanced I prefer 6:th edition & Kings of Wars simplicity.

As for the armybooks, I loved them, they were like bibles to me, I read & re-read the srmybooks plenty of times. Id love the armybooks of 5:th edition using the lists from Ravening Hordes 6:th edition as a base for all armybooks, sadly the humour was removed in later editions.
 
Galadrin
Cool, I'd love to see your army list if you still have it. I always found the magic item combos that players picked were an interesting insight into the strategy of their army list. To get the ball rolling, I'll share my typical army list (2,018 points):

Wood Elf Pine Glade Kindred
Wood Elf General (365)
Light Armour, Longbow, Hail of Doom Arrow, Bow of Loren, Black Amulet, Great Eagle

Mage Champion (151)
Rod of Power, Magic War Paint

Hero (170)
Ogre Blade, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Spear

5 Warhawk Riders (190)
Light Armour, Shields, Spears

17 Glade Guards (253)
Musician, Standard, Light Armour, Shields, Banner of Courage

24 Archers (264)
(Either in two groups of twelve or in four groups of six)

5 Waywatchers (90)

5 Scouts (80)

5 Dryads (175) or 8 Wardancers (160)

Treeman (280)

I loved the maneuverability of this list, but it could be pretty fragile at times. The flying cavalry would be used for rear charges and warmachine hunting. The general would go where he was needed to provide a leadership bonus, but would only get stuck into combat if absolutely necessary. Of course, getting into short range and dropping a Hail of Doom Arrow on 2+ to hit was quite fun. All the tactica of that era really dumped on Glade Guard, but I loved the models (they were THE figures from the 4th/5th edition diorama that got me into Warhammer in the first place). The Treeman and Dryads would support the poor squishy spear elves in combat... Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't! Banner of Courage helped them hold against a charge though.
 
snyggejygge
Last time I played I used this list:

Chaos Hero: Mark of Khorne, Helm of Many Eyes, Jade Amulet, barded Chaos steed, great weapon, lance & shield.

Chaos Master sorcerer: Mark of Tzeentch, Chaos Armour, Destiny of Tzeentch, Staff of Osiris, Dispel Scroll, Flail & Disc.

5 Chaos Knights: Banner of Might

15 Chaos Warriors: Halberds, shields, Chaos armour & Standard of Shielding

1 Marauder Chaos chariot: Scythes & flails

8 Harpies

1 Dragon Ogre: Additional handweapon

6 Chaos Hounds.

I used a version of the Hammer & the anvil tactic, Warriors & chariot as the anvil, rest as hammers, the Harpies go after war Machines & fragile units while the sorcerer blew stuff up, especially good vs Knights due to the staff not allowing any saves.
 
Galadrin
That looks like a good list, but you would have trouble with a tooled up lord and war machines. One problem is that the Marauder Chariot is just over 100 pts, so it is technically worth 2 VP. If you drop the flails, it is only worth 1 VP.

Wood Elves in particular have difficulty with Chaos Warrior lists because the do not have either powerful characters or war machines. If I were playing against that list, I would drop all my regiments (there's no need for rank bonus against a list like that) and I would go:

Ariel (with High, Light and Amethyst spells) (491 pts)

Lord on Eagle with Hail of Doom (to take out Harpies) and Potion of Strength and Bow of Loren (to take out Knights) (about 315 pts)

A few throw-away 100pt units of 9 archers to whittle down the dogs and contest table quarters

A cheap, 100 pt Wood Elf chariot with scythes

Two treemen to hurt the warriors and knights (560 pts)

A great eagle to march block (the Lord would be doing the same) and to draw out the frenzied Khorne hero (75 pts)

Two or three allied Dwarf Organ Guns (either with Rune of Disguise or, if points allow, with cheap 100 pt units of Wardancers to surround them and protect them from Harpies with Shadows Coil dance). Obviously, the Organ Guns would fire at full rate to take out the Chaos Sorcerer, Knights, Dragon Ogre and Warriors (in that order of priority).

Maybe an allied High Elf mage for dispel scrolls and a bit more High spells, reducing the. If I were being mean, I would take a cheap Wood Elf hero with warhawk and Black Gem of Gnar instead, so that he can fly up to the Chaos Sorcerer and freeze him.
Edited by Galadrin on 29-01-2017 09:01
 
snyggejygge
Well we play the game a little bit differently than straight out of the box, we play with the following criteria:

Minimum 33% Regiments
Max 33% Characters (Bretonnia may have 50% characters)
No unridden large monsters
No allied characters or warmachines except Dogs of War
No Power 3 spells
Magic Items with a points value of more than 50 cannot be included
Only one war machine, for each regiment in the army
No Fly High

A tooled up lord can still be tricky ofc, especially slanns, but my Chaos hero usually take out anything in 1 round before they get to strike, 8 attacks, hitting on 2's with S7 is usually enough. I used to have a lord with same set-up & Flail of skulls, powerful as hell, but the hero usually does the job just as good for over 100 pts less.

& in addition we use the VP100 system introduced late in 5:th edition (which became the norm later on), so whether something costs 199 or 201 pts wont matter much when it comes to VP.

If we were to play the game straight out of the box my build would be very different, then I would use the Doomlord of Khorne with Sword of Destruction, Regeneration & Collar of Khorne. Any magic item in base-contact is nullified (so no Black gems, heart of woes or Black Amulets work against him), Collar of Khorne makes casting magic on him very tricky since he will dispel half of them & those that are dispelled get destroyed & finally a decent save with 2+ armoursave & regeneration (not many flaming attacks that aren't magical). Along with him would ofc be a level 4 wizard with forbidden rod, Amber amulet, Golden Crown & a dispel scroll, casting spells with total Power each turn & finally a champ somehwere with Black Gem of Gnar to annoy my opponent since he can't use his against my lord.
However our group just isn't into those kind of games, we would play 6th more if it only had the charm from 4th/5th editions.
 
Galadrin
Ah, no those are fine house rules. Nothing wrong with tweaking the game! I think I would have to run a Wood Elf Lord (or Mage Lord) on an White Dragon, then, to freeze the Khorne Lord in place. Now sure where I'd go after that... the one thing Wood Elves cannot do in 5th is deal with lots of high armour saves.

Then again, your army is astoundingly low model count for 2,000 points... the other option for Wood Elves is the "safe" narrow victory, where I avoid most of your army and just kill off a few marginal units with spells (and Hail of Doom, and Bow of Loren...) and win with a very slim margin. Scary units can be easily avoided with good forest placement and lots of fast, flying march-blockers and nimble skirmishing Wood Elf units.

The only problem is that strategy is almost impossible to counter, so it is easy, predictable and boring for the Wood Elf player and endlessly frustrating for the opponent... it's the most powerful tool in the Wood Elf arsenal, but you won't have may opponents (or friends!) if you do it too much.

To be clear, I am not normally a cheesy player! My above list has Glade Guard... GLADE GUARD! There is probably no worse unit in the entire game of Warhammer. But they are a fluffy and cool unit so I take them anyway. Not against Chaos, or Undead, or Dwarfs, mind you... but certainly against most Empire, Orcs & Goblins and Dark Elf lists.

By the by, Rick Priestley actually errated Sword of Destruction in a White Dwarf so that it nullifies all Chaos Rewards and even Marks of Chaos (it explicitly didn't, previously), so the Doomlord wouldn't work under those rules (although he would also lose Frenzy, which in some ways is his greatest weakness as it is easy to exploit). There were also recommendations to limit magic items (including Virtues, Marks, Bloodlines, rune items etc) to 125 pts for lords, 75 pts for heroes and 25 pts for champions (if I recall correctly). That also showed up in a White Dwarf issue. I personally like those changes, plus the magic item "veto" rule that existed in GW tournaments.
Edited by Galadrin on 30-01-2017 03:30
 
snyggejygge
Chaos is Always low model Count in 4th/5th Wink

Yeah I saw the errata, it also cleared up Hydra Sword which so many mis-used. We tried out the limitations, but since we banned all items costing above 50 pts it didn't really matter much, most lords had 130 pts of items anyway (Flail of Skulls, Black Amulet/Armour of Protection & Crown of command was the standard norm around here) so we skipped it.
Ante is cool for tournaments, but sometimes destroy too much in casual games, if you try a fun combo say Heart of Woe & Potion of Strength or Ring of Corin with Skull staff & have one piece removed its not so fun any more....
Ive actually played a lot of games with ante, but they almost Always removed the same thing, Black Gem of Gnar.

Btw if youre into 5th edition gaming feel free to check out my blog: [url]http://snyggejygge.blogspot.se/ [/url]
I am currently building a Chaos army for use in 5:th edition as well as reminiscing my early gaming there.
 
Galadrin
Great blog, your painting is inspired. It's great to see someone using a bright, bold palette again. I hated it when the Eavy Metal team lost all their great painters and changed to drab, duo-tone paint schemes. Nowadays it seems as if all people do is quick washes and airbrushing and it always looks horrendous! Nothing beats the old techniques, in my opinion (painting in thin, watered down layers for bright, vibrant and perfectly blended colours). Even the new paint sets out are awful... thank God they still make the classic Citadel paints.
 
snyggejygge
Thanks, the whole idea was to make the army as a tribute to those days, I have gone both Bright red & dark & gritty when it comes to chaos over the years, this time I wanted something Bright with a 90s feeling without having it all red.
 
jonathan e
Fifth edition was where I came in, around the time that multi-part plastic Chaos Warriors landed and let me build a 2000 point army for fifty quid. It wasn't very good - I played half a dozen games against a schoolmate's High Elves from the fourth edition box and lost all of them, in fact I think I only won a game of fifth when I borrowed a Slann and took the Lizardmen from the core box out for a spin - but it was good enough to get me in.

Sadly I could only just start my Vampire Counts army with the first book, as pocket money budgets didn't extend to the bucket o' Zombies I'd have needed to actually play. It would be 2017 before I got to come back and play my favourite army in the edition, and it was... a bit of an experience, gearing up for a proper little one day tournament and everything.

I did a lot of blogging about the experience and rather than drone on at any more length I'll just point you thataway.
Warhammer transmissions at Malediction Games

OG sixth edition: 20 / 6 / 21
comeback tour: 5 / 0 / 4
 
https://maledicton.games
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