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A fearful thread on Terror
MattyFenby
Thanks a lot for making this.

In an attempt to clear up that charge on the Carnosaur:
"However, you never have to take a Terror and a Fear test from the same enemy or situation-- just take a Terror test. If you pass the Terror test you automatically pass the Fear test too." From page 82 of the main rulebook.

So I believe that charge SHOULD have gone through once the Terror test was passed.
 
Just Tony
Terror was for being 6" away at the start of the turn, Fear for charging as I had passed Terror already. It's no different than a unit being Panicked in each phase, even potentially from the same unit.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
"from the same ENEMY OR situation"

It sounds like you've already made up your mind but I don't know if I've interpreted this the same way as you.


EDIT: I've looked at it again and looked through the FAQs in the 2004 book. It really does seem kind of ambiguous here because the wording "you never have to take a Terror test and a Fear test from the same enemy or situation..." should continue on to specify whether they mean "in the same PHASE" or "in the same TURN."
I was thinking that it feels a little absurd that you would test twice and that in some situations these tests could be back to back but I do recognize your point that the Start of Turn is in its own phase from Movement. If the Movement phase really is a "subsequent encounter" with the feared unit then I think you did it right.

I'm surprised this wasn't in the FAQ though because it seems like this would be something people could interpret differently, especially when they say "you automatically pass the fear test too." Someone could definitely see that contradicting the need to have to roll the dice on that Fear test.
Edited by MattyFenby on 19-08-2020 19:47
 
TinyLegions
For starters good to see that you are gaming JT. I am sure that it was an interesting night with all that was going on. Glad to also see some of my old models getting some action as well. Hope that you like them!

I have to chime in and say that I always played fear and terror like what Matt said originally. I look at as the only time that you ever take a fear test is when charging or being charged by a fear causing unit. Likewise you only test terror on those two instances, plus when starting the turn within the 6" terror halo. If you automatically pass a fear test when passing a terror test, then which fear test are they talking about? My only conclusion would be that it counts for the fear test that you would need to take when charging that unit in that movement phase. The terror test is taken during the movement phase when a normal unit charges a "fresh" terror unit from outside of the 6" halo, which tells me that terror supersedes fear regardless of when terror is tested during that turn.
Edited by TinyLegions on 19-08-2020 22:48
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
Just Tony
Again, I was hit with the halo test before the charge test, they were two separate instances. I don't play and interpret rules solely to punish myself, so my interpretation was based on them being two different triggering events. The difference is that one of these tests happened "at the start of the turn" which is in effect its own phase, and the other happened in the "Declare Charges" phase, which is again a separate entity. It would be like having a panic test in the magic phase and THEN the shooting phase from the same unit TO the same unit.

Oh, and those models were a godsend.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
This is a really tough one in my opinion because its unclear to me what the intention was. They do say "you automatically pass the fear test too" but they dont specify if it is in that TURN or in that PHASE. They say go back to normal fear for subsequent encounters but they also say enemy OR situation. It would feel very weird to have Start of Turn be test for terror and then my only charge is against that same unit so test again immediately. But maybe if i were orcs and my start of the turn phase was longer, it might feel more within the spirit of the game that they test twice. Then again, does this mean that charging a Terror causing unit from just over 6" away would only be half as scary or risky as charging it from 6" or less?
 
TinyLegions
Just Tony wrote:

Again, I was hit with the halo test before the charge test, they were two separate instances. I don't play and interpret rules solely to punish myself, so my interpretation was based on them being two different triggering events. The difference is that one of these tests happened "at the start of the turn" which is in effect its own phase, and the other happened in the "Declare Charges" phase, which is again a separate entity. It would be like having a panic test in the magic phase and THEN the shooting phase from the same unit TO the same unit.

Oh, and those models were a godsend.


Great to hear about the models.

There is a difference in that the situation that you describe, has more clarity in the rules. They specifically state "shooting or magic," not "shooting and magic." I do agree that a panic test is required if you are hit with 25% casualties in both the shooting and magic phase. It may be subtle but it is how the rule is structured. I get that you got hit with a terror test because you ended up in the terror halo, but there is no reason to take a fear test at the start of the turn. The only time that you ever roll a fear test is during the movement phase either by being charged or charging, and the rules state that after taking a terror test you don't take a fear test. The next instance where you would take a fear test on that unit is when you are charging said unit.

Honestly, I am surprised that this was not addressed in a FAQ an errata somewhere. I thought that this was also talked about in an article form WD or in the chronicles, but I am not seeing anything on it.
Edited by TinyLegions on 20-08-2020 19:15
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
TinyLegions
[quote]MattyFenby wrote:

This is a really tough one in my opinion because its unclear to me what the intention was. They do say "you automatically pass the fear test too" but they dont specify if it is in that TURN or in that PHASE. They say go back to normal fear for subsequent encounters but they also say enemy OR situation. It would feel very weird to have Start of Turn be test for terror and then my only charge is against that same unit so test again immediately. But maybe if i were orcs and my start of the turn phase was longer, it might feel more within the spirit of the game that they test twice. Then again, does this mean that charging a Terror causing unit from just over 6" away would only be half as scary or risky as charging it from 6" or less?[/quote]

That is part of the terror rules. The rules say "A unit must take a terror test if charged or wishing to charge an enemy that causes terror." A unit of knights that charge a giant from 16" out still have to take a terror test if this is their first encounter in the game.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
MattyFenby
Tiny,
What I meant was, those knights will only test once because they are charging from outside the "halo". If they pass the Terror they automatically pass the Fear, too. But if they want to charge from 5" away, theyll need to pass a test at the start of the turn, AND during the Movement phase under Tony's interpretation. This would mean theres an advantage to charging terrifying things from far away. Im not sure if that is what they were intending when they made that rule but I could be wrong.
 
Just Tony
MattyFenby wrote:

Tiny,
What I meant was, those knights will only test once because they are charging from outside the "halo". If they pass the Terror they automatically pass the Fear, too. But if they want to charge from 5" away, theyll need to pass a test at the start of the turn, AND during the Movement phase under Tony's interpretation. This would mean theres an advantage to charging terrifying things from far away. Im not sure if that is what they were intending when they made that rule but I could be wrong.


I want to set up a bizarre scenario that sort of sets up the same scenario. Terror bomb is passed but you have to reform in your movement phase due to position of said terror causing unit. In your magic phase you cast some sort of charge inducing spell such as Unseen Lurker or the spell in the Staff of Darkoth, which is called The Wild Call. Wild Call says nothing about autopassing Fear or the like, so you basically MAY declare a charge and move in the Magic phase but are still obligated to the Fear test. Unseen Lurker may have a caveat. I'll have to run out to my car and get the book so I can amend that here in a second.

Since this charge is indeed in a separate phase, it is held to the standard of a normal charge, which is obligation to take a Fear test.

WHY this is important is because "Start of the Turn" is its own phase, with its own batch of things that happen. The Comet arriving is just one example from this Batrep. Declaring charges happens at the beginning of the Movement phase which is also its own thing. THIS is the point I am trying to make. There is a clear separation between when you test for the Terror bomb and the charge. A nice batch of wording for passing said Terror test would clear it all up, as something as simple as "this test covers any other fear liability caused by the terror causing unit against the unit that passed the Terror test." Sadly, that one line of text doesn't exist. The biggest disagreement here is coming more from the "clear" separation of phases.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
I completely understand that Start of Turn and Movement are different phases. Thats not at all the point i am unsure of. I am saying there is a possibility they were intending "automatically pass the fear test too" to include "for the remainder of the TURN" so that there isnt an inherent advantage from charging terrifying things from outside the "halo." The fact that they include wording like "same enemy OR situation" makes me think this. You keep on saying "its a different situation" "its a different phase" and i hear you BUT it IS the same enemy and they DID intend for you to get an auto pass on a fear test that doesnt exist if you are halo testing rather than charge testing from far away. Tiny is arguing (i think) that this one fear autopass carries over between phases or situations due to it being the same enemy.
 
MattyFenby
I didn't mean for a huge battle report with amazing pictures and model painting to be bogged down by one call on the field.

Thank you for sharing this battle, and did you ever end up tallying up all the Victory Points?
 
TinyLegions
I pulled the posts from the batrep that this was part of and made them their own thread.
Edited by TinyLegions on 24-08-2020 17:11
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
TinyLegions
Just Tony wrote:

I want to set up a bizarre scenario that sort of sets up the same scenario. Terror bomb is passed but you have to reform in your movement phase due to position of said terror causing unit. In your magic phase you cast some sort of charge inducing spell such as Unseen Lurker or the spell in the Staff of Darkoth, which is called The Wild Call. Wild Call says nothing about autopassing Fear or the like, so you basically MAY declare a charge and move in the Magic phase but are still obligated to the Fear test. Unseen Lurker may have a caveat. I'll have to run out to my car and get the book so I can amend that here in a second.

Since this charge is indeed in a separate phase, it is held to the standard of a normal charge, which is obligation to take a Fear test.

WHY this is important is because "Start of the Turn" is its own phase, with its own batch of things that happen. The Comet arriving is just one example from this Batrep. Declaring charges happens at the beginning of the Movement phase which is also its own thing. THIS is the point I am trying to make. There is a clear separation between when you test for the Terror bomb and the charge. A nice batch of wording for passing said Terror test would clear it all up, as something as simple as "this test covers any other fear liability caused by the terror causing unit against the unit that passed the Terror test." Sadly, that one line of text doesn't exist. The biggest disagreement here is coming more from the "clear" separation of phases.


This scenario is actually not that bizarre, and something similar was asked in the FAQ's. To take everyone further down the rabbit hole, I would also consider this to be similar to another scenario where a unit passes a fear test but is too far away to charge, and then in the magic phase get moved into combat. Does the old fear test back in the movement phase count? Do they take another fear test in the magic phase? If that unit fails that fear test, are they just screwed and not allowed to move into CC, as per the fear rules in charging?

What was asked in the FAQ is as quoted:

"Q: It says you can't shoot or fight and can't do any other movement in the Movement phase on the turn you rally, but via magic you could relocate the unit into contact with the enemy. If so, would they fight in Close Combat?

A: They would fight as any other unit."
(Warhammmer Chronicles p. 115)

I know that some of these magic spells state "normal charging rules apply," but that is just as unclear to me as our original query given some of the rules on how movement works with these spells. Certainly this is part of the rules that could have been written with more clarity. I am almost certain that this came up back when the 6th edition was in use, and would bet that it was discussed and addressed in a WD, but I have no idea where to look. Other than going through my old WD's, which I may do as this is rather bothersome. If not from an official authority like Gav, but in a bat-rep somewhere this scenario must have come up. It is disappointing to me that this was not part of an errata nor a FAQ during this time.
Edited by TinyLegions on 24-08-2020 18:12
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
MattyFenby
WHAT I LIKE ABOUT JT'S INTERPRETATION: This feels like the cleanest way to go (mostly) by the letter of the rules. You don't have to remember to carry over a passed test from phase to phase. This way also means that positioning is key and you can make the argument that fast movers get some momentum going from over 6" away before they have a chance to realize just how big and scary the Terror causing thing is (taking only 1 test if charging from outside of the "halo" in total that Turn rather than 2 total tests)

WHAT I DONT LIKE ABOUT JT'S INTERPRETATION: in a good amount of cases you could have your Start of Turn phase be the Terror test, start of turn phase ends, Movement phase begins and immediately you have to have the same unit test again for the same enemy. This just feels bad I think, to have the charge fail because of that when charges are so key in this game. Goblin wolf riders attempting to charge a dragon from 6.01" away have an expected 42.5% success rate. Empire Swordsmen with superior Leadership charging a dragon from 5.99" away have an expected 33% success rate. But were they to have Started their Turn at 6.01" away like the Goblins the Swordsmen would be getting that charge off 57.5% of the time. That doesn't feel right to me.
 
TinyLegions
MattyFenby wrote:

Tiny,
What I meant was, those knights will only test once because they are charging from outside the "halo". If they pass the Terror they automatically pass the Fear, too. But if they want to charge from 5" away, theyll need to pass a test at the start of the turn, AND during the Movement phase under Tony's interpretation. This would mean theres an advantage to charging terrifying things from far away. Im not sure if that is what they were intending when they made that rule but I could be wrong.


I would say that there is not much of an improvement to charge a terror causing unit from far off. You still fail a charge if you are over your charge range, and if you fail the terror test, then you flee. YMMV, however.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
MattyFenby
Tiny, check out my explanation right above your last post. I may have made an error in the math but from what I can tell there is a HUGE improvement to charging things from far off. Empire Swordsmen charging from 6.01" away succeed 58% of the time, from 5.99" away they succeed only 33% of the time. That seems significant to me.


I got to these numbers by taking the odds of rolling a 7 or less with 2 dice (23/40 = .575)
Then if you play it JT's way you have to roll a 7 or less again, only getting the opportunity during the 58% of the times you succeeded before, so (.575 x .575 = .331)
 
TinyLegions
JT: I for one am not trying to gang up on you on this point, and if you feel like it, I do apologize. This is actually something healthy to hash out. Not to mention the thought and logic exercise that we are going through in order to determine a good general course. As stated earlier, I am going to start to go through some of my old WD's to see if this ever came up.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
TinyLegions
MattyFenby wrote:

Tiny, check out my explanation right above your last post. I may have made an error in the math but from what I can tell there is a HUGE improvement to charging things from far off. Empire Swordsmen charging from 6.01" away succeed 58% of the time, from 5.99" away they succeed only 33% of the time. That seems significant to me.


I got to these numbers by taking the odds of rolling a 7 or less with 2 dice (23/40 = .575)
Then if you play it JT's way you have to roll a 7 or less again, only getting the opportunity during the 58% of the times you succeeded before, so (.575 x .575 = .331)


Its not the statistics, which sounds right to me, it is the fact that you run the risk of fleeing something that is a far off threat. Its one of those times where it may not happen as much, but when it does you really hate yourself if you fail a terror test from a dragon that is 21" inches away from you.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
TinyLegions
I just saw Gav Thorpe's website out there while trolling for answers online. Perhaps it is worth an email to ask him about this issue.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
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