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Question About Grimgor Ironhide and "Always Attacks First"
MattyFenby
Trying to figure out if there has ever been an official statement about whether Grimgor's special ability 'always attacks first' pertains to enemy chargers in the initial round of combat.


So in the Dogs of War Army List in the 2004 book the Pikemen have "Always Strikes First in the initial round of combat, even before enemies that have charged." I assume that in subsequent rounds of combat they revert to initiative order.

On page 67 of the O&G Army Book, Grimgor's Axe Gitsnik says 'in addition, Grimgor always attacks first." This sounds to me like even in subsequent rounds of combat, Grimgor attacks first. Is that the extent of his rule? Or was I supposed to infer that ALWAYS also includes 'even-against-enemy-chargers?"

It says the word always, but it does not specifically include enemy chargers the way Pikes did. This same 2004 book issues a small rules clarification (not sure what it even corrects because it looks the same as the O&G book to me) for Grimgor in the Errata section but does NOT mention this there or in the FAQ (as far as I've seen).


That would make me think Grimgor's always attacks first is different from the Pikes. However, thought experiment: say Grimgor charged the Pikemen- it says "note that enemies who are entitled to strike first because of a special ability or magic will still strike before pike-armed models."

So THAT makes me think Grimgor's special ability should be seen to even overrule the pikes?

I know you guys have said in 7th Edition it wasn't fun to play against High Elves because their "Always Strikes First" rule included before-enemy-chargers. What are you guys' thoughts on this? Would it be better to interpret this as "ALWAYS attacks first" or as "Always attacks first, excepting enemy chargers?"
 
Just Tony
Explicitly striking first is striking first unless competing with another strike first rule. Striking before chargers has been pretty explicit and universal across all ASF examples. As far as pikes? Initiative order.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
TinyLegions
What JT said, "always strikes first" means just that. They will strike first all of the time regardless of any situation and regardless on who is charging. The only way to strike before a character with an ASF rule is to bring that rule on something else. Note that not all rules are the same for competing ASF weapons. Blade of Darting steel is in the Q&A in the chronicles has you roll off regardless of initiative order, which is different from most other ASF weapons. We would need to roll a die to determine who's rules is in effect that turn if my dwarf lord with MrR of Swiftness is in combat against Tony's Elvish prince with the Blade of Darting Steel according to the Q&A, as the MrR of Swiftness goes initiative order, then a roll off. In that scenario, Tony would prefer to use the rule on my rune as he most likely will be attaching first with higher initiative, and not rolling a dice to see if I attack before his prince.

As far as Pikes, it says that they don't strike first before a character with the aforementioned rule in the chronicle. Quote: "Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first because of a special ability or magic, will still strike before pike armed models." (emphasis added by GW not me) So for your scenario, Grimgor does attack first all the time, however in the first round of combat regardless who charged in this scenario, the pikes will attack after Grimgor and whoever Grimgor is attached to after that. In subsequent rounds it will be Grimgor, then whoever had initiative after that.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
MattyFenby
Any advice for a 2500pt game where Grimgor is my General up against the Sisters of Twilight for the Wood Elves mounted on a Great Eagle?
 
Brr-icy
grimgor is a beast, i wouldn't worry about him. if you have enough models, you could always do an ard boyz list.
 
Just Tony
Mounted on a Great Eagle? Shoot it down.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
LORDS (0-1)

Grimgor (also occupies Hero slot, boyz occupy Special slot)


HEROES (0-3)

Savage Orc Big Boss- Mounted on Boar. Basha's Axe (+2 Attacks), Shield, Warpaint
Savage Orc Shaman- Mounted on Boar. Dispel Scroll x2
Grimgor Slot

CORE (3+)

Savage Orc Boyz x 29. Additional Hand Weapons, Warpaint, Shields, Banner, Musician
Savage Orc Big Uns x 29. Additional Hand Weapons, Warpaint, Shields, Banner, Musician
Goblin Wolf Riderz x 5. Spears & Shields

SPECIAL (0-4)

Savage Orc Boar Boyz x 12. Spears & Shields, Warpaint, Full Command. Magic Banner: The Night Banner (-1 to hit w missile fire)
Grimgor's Bodyguard Slot. Black Orcs x 19. Heavy Armour, Additional Hand Weapons, Musician, Magic Banner: The Blasted Banner (Stubborn)
Goblin Spear Chukka. Bully
Goblin Spear Chukka. Bully (2 chukkas take 1 special slot)
Goblin Spear Chukka. Bully
Goblin Spear Chukka. Bully (2 chukkas take 1 special slot)

RARE (0-2)

Forest Goblin Spider Riderz x 10. Spears & Shields. Banner, Musician. Using Ravening Hordes statline for them, Special Rules: Wall-Crawlerz, Fear Elves, Animosity, Poisoned Attacks (spiderz only)
Goblin Doom Diver Catapult. Bully


It's a pitched Battle 2500 Pts
I have a lot of bolt throwers due to their extreme cheapness, coreys affinity for monsters, and to execute the "shoot them down" part of the plan.
I MUST bring Grimgor as my General. I MUST bring the wolf boyz and spider riderz as we are playtesting them/comparing them.
I also MUST bring the Doom Diver as we are playing it again with the dice as hit box size and with the new model we got on Ebay

He MUST bring the Sisters of Twilight on a Great Eagle as we just got an amazing model of them on a Great Owl somehow.
He also will VERY LIKELY bring at least 1 unit of Dryads and one Treeman as those are his favorite pieces in warhammer


Anything I can change or optimize here? Ive found that investing too much in magic the way we play has been a bad investment.
I don't expect him to bring more than 1 Spellsinger and maybe a Branchwraith. Bringing a "scroll caddy" hopefully ensures I get my boyz into CC and the cheap war machines I'm hoping can target Treemen/Flyers/Characters
 
Just Tony
I personally think you need at least 1 unit of archers. Lose a unit of Savage Orcs and do what you can to fill the void with some arrer boys, either orc or goblin.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
ok, I'm looking into possibly dropping the big uns and spreading their points around into a night goblin/netter/fanatic unit cause I want to play with our new models of those but I have another question:

Do orc bullies confer the "ignore goblin panic" rule onto the war machine they oversee? They're "common orcs" which should have that rule right? I'm not seeing it specifically stated anywhere yet, though
 
Just Tony
The wording doesn't expressly state it applies either way. My inclination is to look up the Warhammer Annual 2002 wherein they go over Psychology and what can and cannot be given to a unit through a character. I'm pretty sure Immune To Panic was listed in there somewhere, but I'm at work and don't have my book directly in front of me.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
OK heres my revised list after my buddy and I agreed to tweak the Spider Rules to make them Core and Fast Cav

LORDS (0-1)

Grimgor (also occupies Hero slot, boyz occupy Special slot) 400 Pts


HEROES (0-3)

Savage Orc Big Boss- Mounted on Boar. Basha's Axe (+2 Attacks), Shield, Warpaint 151 Pts
Savage Orc Shaman- Mounted on Boar. Dispel Scroll x2 141 Pts
Grimgor Slot

CORE (3+)

Savage Orc Boyz x 30. Additional Hand Weapons, Warpaint, Shields, Banner, Musician 315 Pts
Night Goblins x 40. Short Bows. 3 Fanatics, 10 Netters, Banner, Musician. 187 Pts
Goblin Wolf Boyz x 5. Spears & Short Bows. Shields. Musician 76 Pts
Goblin Wolf Boyz x 5. Spears & Short Bows. Shields. Musician 76 Pts
Forest Goblin Spider Riderz x 6. Spears & Short Bows. Shields. Musician 102 Pts

SPECIAL (0-4)

Savage Orc Boar Boyz x 10. Spears & Shields, Warpaint, Full Command. Magic Banner: The Night Banner (-1 to hit w missile fire) 292 Pts
Grimgor's Bodyguard Slot. Black Orcs x 19. Heavy Armour, Additional Hand Weapons, Musician, Magic Banner: The Blasted Banner (Stubborn) 330 Pts
Goblin Spear Chukka. 35 Pts
Goblin Spear Chukka. (2 chukkas take 1 special slot) 35 Pts
Goblin Spear Chukka. 35 Pts
Goblin Spear Chukka. (2 chukkas take 1 special slot) 35 Pts

RARE (0-2)

Giant. 205 Pts
Goblin Doom Diver Catapult. Bully 85 Pts


It's a pitched Battle 2500 Pts vs Wood Elves.
I MUST include Grimgor, Wolf Boyz, Spider Riderz, and the Doom Diver.
He MUST include Sisters of Twilight on Great Owl (Counts as Eagle), Dryads, and a Treeman

BTW we have decided to allow the Bully to confer Immune to Goblin Panic onto his War Machine Crew while he lives
 
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