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Pitched Battle 2: Electrict Boogaloo! 2,000 points Beastmen vs. Dwarfs 6th Ed.
Just Tony
So we get another weekend free, and we get another game. This one is an oddity for a couple reasons: because it is a repeat of the last mission we played at the same points value with the same armies but switched players, and because between these games was a saucy battle between my brother Ashley and my niece Keely with the same armies. At the end my brother made it clear that we are NOT using either army for the next game.

He also said he has pics of the game against Keely and is going to type up a batrep for that, so hopefully we get that going soon.

ANYWAY…

Pitched Battle, 2,000 points. I’m running the Beastmen this time while he’s running Dwarfs. The armies break down as such:

BEASTMEN

Lord: Doombull – Heavy Armor, Axes of Khorgor – 251 points
Hero: Wargor – Chaos Armor, Shield – 72 points
Hero: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armor, Beast Banner – 149 points
Hero: Bray-shaman (Level 2) – Staff of Darkoth – 135 points
Core: Beast Herd (6 Gors, 12 Ungors) – Two hand weapons, Full Command – 125 points
Core: Beast Herd (6 Gors, 12 Ungors) – Two hand weapons, Full Command – 125 points
Core: Beast Herd (6 Gors, 12 Ungors) – Two hand weapons, Full Command – 125 points
Core: Bestigors (19) – Full Command – 228 points
Core: Bestigors (19) – Full Command – 228 points
Core: Bestigors (19) – Full Command – 228 points
Core: Minotaurs (7) – Great weapons – 322 points

TOTAL: 1,988 points

I THOUGHT it was 1,998 but somehow I lost 10 extra points while downsizing from my first draft eliminating magic items. Oh, well. 10 points won’t affect the game that much…
Also I rolled up Pit of Shades and Shades of Death in Lore of Shadows, swapping Pit for Steed of Shadows for my spells, as well as getting Wild Call with the Staff of Darkoth.

DWARFS

Lord: Dwarf Lord – Gromgril Armor, Shield, Master Rune of Snorri Spanglehelm, Rune of Fury, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Stone – 271 points
Hero: Thane – Great weapon, Master Rune of Gromgril, Rune of Resistance – 109 points
Hero: Thane – Battle Standard Bearer, Gromgril armor, Rune of Fear – 163 points
Core: Warriors (20) – Heavy Armor, Shields, Musician, Standard – 195 points
Core: Warriors (18) – Heavy Armor, Shields, Musician, Champion – 177 points
Core: Miners (20) – Musican, Standard – 258 points
Core: Rangers (20) – Musican, Standard – 258 points
Special: Hammerers (20) – Musician, Standard, Rune of Courage – 346 points
Special: Slayers (20) – 220 points

TOTAL: 1,997 points

The roll off for choice of side had Ashley pick the side with the hill smack in the middle, I failed the deployment roll and went first. After all was set up, Ashley totally shocked me by choosing to go second. Wonder what the plan is…

TURN 1 BEASTMEN

The turn starts out with no chargest to declare, obviously, and all Unruly rolls passed. I move all units ahead full with the exception of the Wargor’s Bestigors which wheel around the hill so I don’t have to prop the unit

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824472392_127f2e2395_c.jpgPB2T1B1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

I pass on the Magic phase completely as no spell will matter.

TURN 1 DWARFS

The units turn, move, and turn back to the front, essentially spacing out the battle line a bit to facilitate potential flanking.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824472407_f996f0aec8_c.jpgPB2T1D1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

TURN 2 BEASTMEN

Pass Unruly, all units ahead full but the Minotaurs who only move 8” to keep the battle line solid.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824472402_1ec77d284f_c.jpgPB2T2B1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824378796_104362978d_c.jpgPB2T2B2 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

I cast Wild Call on the center Herd, declaring that they were going to charge the Miners. Shockingly Ashley chooses to let it through.

The Foe-render whiffs all of his hits completely, with the Gors killing 2 Miners. The Miners strike back, dedicating all three attacks at the Foe-render. Fortunate, as only one of the rolls wounded, but still enough to kill the unit leader. The Herd loses by 1 point, fails its test, breaks away 5”, and the Miners pursue 6”, wiping them out. The subsequent Panic tests on the Bray-shaman’s Bestigors and the Minotaurs is passed.
Off to a good start…

TURN 2 DWARFS

The Miners declare a charge on the Bray-shaman’s Bestigors, who hold in response. The battle line units again use facing to back up 1 1/2” while the Rangers march forward to block possible charges to the Miners’ flank.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50823634843_43db0455d6_c.jpgPB2T2D1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824378766_bfab509505_c.jpgPB2T2D2 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

The Miners wound the Bray-shaman, kill the Champion and 2 Bestigors while getting no hits in return. The Bestigors break and flee 9” with the Miners pursuing 4”, resulting in a Panic check for the left flank Beast Herd which promptly flees 7” away.

TURN 3 BEASTMEN

The Minotaurs declare a charge on the character bus Warriors who hold. Fear for both units means no test. The Battle Standard’s Bestigors charge the plain Warriors, who also hold. A hedgerow that counts as an obstacle causes the Wargor’s unit to fail its charge on the Slayers. All fleeing units rally and the right flank Herd passes its Unruly test, moving up full.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50823634833_0d6c439f11_c.jpgPB2T3B1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824378776_68df06076c_c.jpgPB2T3B2 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824472367_8fedabb6f1_c.jpgPB2T3B3 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824472357_edf90925c1_c.jpgPB2T3B4 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

Wild Call is cast on the Bray-shaman’s unit, which draws out all of the Dwarfs’ dispel dice to no avail. Miners receive the charge.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824472352_be799bc949_c.jpgPB2T3B5 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

With 1 die left, the Bray-shaman successfully casts Steed of Shadows and flies out of the unit to the other side of the woods nearby.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824378716_9e599a5bea_c.jpgPB2T3B6 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

2 Miners die on the charge, only killing 1 Bestigor in return. After all is added up, taking the higher ground into account, it results in a draw.

The Doombull roars a challenge, which is accepted by the Thane. (Huh, THAT’S why both the BSB and the Thane were in the same unit…) Rerollable hits all strike and 3 wounds land, but the Thane’s armor turns them away. The Thane, however, cannot land a single blow. The Minos manage to wound the BSB once and kill 2 Warriors as well. The Minotaurs take 1 wound despite the BSB missing all his attacks. Losing the combat, the Minotaurs pass their Break test.

The Beastmen BSB kills 1 Warrior while the Bestigors in his unit kill 3. The lone attack back misses but the Warriors pass their break test.

TURN 3 DWARFS

The Hammerers declare a flank charge on the Minotaurs while the Slayers declare a flank charge on the BSB’s Bestigors. The subsequent Panic checks see both units fleeing from the combat (I even rolled the BSB’s first so they could use the Doombull’s Leadership, STILL failed.) and both units fleeing 6”. A quick look at the rules shows that the unit in combat, as long as it had won the previous round, could pursue. That meant the unit that the Minotaurs, including the Doombull, were in combat with. They proceed to roll a natural 12, reduced to 11” but easily enough to wipe out the Minotaurs. Both the Hammerers and the Slayers are left with failed charges and move forward 3”. This goat rope is followed up by the Rangers adjusting position slightly to ensure the Herd can’t get to their flank

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50823634813_4a67637c73_c.jpgPB2T3D1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824378711_41333c68c8_c.jpgPB2T3D2 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

3 Miners die in the combat phase, dispatching 1 Bestigor in return. Proximity to both the Dwarf Lord and the Battle Standard nets them a reroll and pass.

TURN 4 BEASTMEN

The turn starts with the Wargor’s Bestigor unit panicking at the fleeing units from the previous turn 11” directly away from the combat area.

The left flank Herd predictably charges the Rangers who hold, and the right flank Herd charges the Slayers, who HAVE to hold. The Battle Standard Bearer’s unit fails to rally, fleeing 4” further while the Bray-shaman moves forward 2” to line up spells and avoid any crossfire flee/pursuits.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50823634798_8a9bc78830_c.jpgPB2T4B1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

Shades of Death on the left flank Herd is dispelled.

The Foe-render kills 1 Ranger while the Gors miss ALL their attacks and/or wound rolls. The Rangers kill 2 Gors, more than enough to win the combat. The Herd breaks and flees 4” with the Rangers pursuing 5”, wiping them out. To add insult to injury, proximity to the destruction causes a panic test on the Bray-shaman who fails and flees 3” away from the carnage.

The Bestigors on the left flank kill 2 Miners while losing 1 of their own. Miners pass their break test.
The Foe-render fails to hit while the Gors kill 2 Slayers, with the Slayers failing to wound anyone. Unbreakable sees the combat continue.

TURN 4 DWARFS

The Rangers adjust position to flank the Miner/Bestigor combat next turn, while the Hammerers make best speed toward the same combat. The Battle Standard leaves his unit to edge closer to the Miner/Bestigor combat to keep the reroll aura close, and the Warriors that he just left reform to face the BSB Bestigors. Finally, the leaderless Warriors move up full toward the BSB Bestigors.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824472307_e40eb76333_c.jpgPB2T4D1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824472277_e5ed169be7_c.jpgPB2T4D2 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824378676_9c3dcb8b39_c.jpgPB2T4D3 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

Again, the Miners lose 2 of their numbers to the Bestigors while failing to wound in return. The leadership and reroll buffs however keep them in the battle.

2 Slayers die this turn while failing to wound in return, Unbreakable sees things through.

TURN 5 BEASTMEN

Holy Hannah, I start the turn by ralling EVERYTHING THAT’S FLEEING!!!!!!! Surely my luck is bouncing back.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824472262_51a64ed7f6_c.jpgPB2T5B1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

No Magic is cast as the Bray-shaman had fled into the woods and I was confident even with Steed he wasn’t allowed to fly out of there.

3 Miners die but manage to kill 1 Bestigor this turn. Reroll nets them a passed break test.

4 Slayers die to the Herd without any wounds back. Unbreakable…

TURN 5 DWARFS

The Rangers start the turn flank charging the left flank Bestigors, who do not panic.

The leaderless Warriors charge the front of the BSB’s Bestigor unit while the Thane’s Warriors charge the flank, with the Bestigors holding in response.

The BSB and Hammerers edge forward again to keep the auras viable.

live.staticflickr.com/65535/50823634753_70e94b5132_c.jpgPB2T5D1 by Tony Lucas, on Flickr

Rangers kill 2 Bestigors, the Bestigors kill 2 Miners, and the Miners kill 1 Bestigor. Finally the combat goes against the Bestigors who break and flee 9”, with the Rangers pursuing 6” and the Miners pursuing 4”.

The Thane kills 2 Bestigors, all Warriors combined manage to kill 2 Bestigors as well. The Bestigors fail to hit and the BSB fails to wound. The next part is pretty predictable. Bestigors break and flee 9”. Forgot to write down what the pursuit roll was, but I do distinctly remember handing off only the banner from the BSB’s unit to Ashley. I’ll assume they weren’t wiped.

The Foe-render kills 1 Slayer. ALL OTHER MODELS FAIL TO HIT OR WOUND. I think everyone in combat had 2 hand weapons. How does this even??!?!?!?

Oh, Unbreakable.

...

CATASTROPHIC DEFEAT – BEASTMEN

Yikes. I mean, YIKES!!!!! That has to be a record. 5 failed Panics and 5 failed Break tests in essentially 4 turns of actual play. My brother reminded me of a poster on dakka who assured me that the 6.5 Dwarf army book having the ability to field over half your Core units as Immune to Panic Longbeards wouldn’t affect the game that much. He told me to point that poster toward THIS batrep. I’d have killed for Immune to Panic in this game.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
Thanks for posting the battle report, it is good motivation for me to keep posting mine and its always fun to see how you guys play.

It occurs to me that daemons and frenzied units (like khorne units) are Immune to Psych so in the future would the chaos army benefit from utilizing that against High-LD Dwarfs? Or maybe is there a higher LD character that could have served as General or a magic item or magic banner to make units Immune to Panic/Psych?

It does not feel good to lose a game where your side fails a bunch of LD checks and the other guy has units with LD 9 or Immune to Panic or Immune to Psych. I am having flashbacks of running greenskins into a blowout vs the asrai right now.
 
Just Tony
As far as marked units? My brother is of the mind that Core units shouldn't be able to marked as such. He takes the same viewpoint with his Lizardmen. I also hate Khorne with a mortal passion. If my only two choices were play as Khorne or never play another game again? I'd choose to never play again. I feel THAT passionately about it.

Two of my failed Panic tests were on LD 9, as well as that first Break test I failed. Without pulling something like Immune to Psychology with marks there wasn't much I could do. My rolls were just bad.

Also, I know that 6th Ed Chaos could mix books, but I choose not to. You'll hear my brother and I harp about the same 3 things regarding gaming: Balance, composition, and structure. The combination aspect of the Chaos books and how they chose to slot regiments eviscerates ALL of that.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
For some reason I thought the Doombull was the one with lower LD and the Beastlord had higher LD, so that makes sense. Couldn't really take much better LD than that.

When you say marked Lizardmen shouldnt be Core are you referring to their Sacred Spawnings variant lists?

What is the source of the Khorne hate?

That's interesting to not mix books. Do you find it ever hurts you against a certain race? I know I'm glad I brought a Beastherd in my last Hordes of Chaos game vs Dwarfs 6.5 because they ended up being my MVP that day. I think it would be cooler to keep the 3 split if they had made 3 books instead of just 2. I think thats what they did in 7th edition maybe?
 
Just Tony
MattyFenby wrote:

For some reason I thought the Doombull was the one with lower LD and the Beastlord had higher LD, so that makes sense. Couldn't really take much better LD than that.


The army as a whole has low LD, it makes up for the other things you can do with the list. It's also why Terror and Fear were so detrimental in previous Batreps for that army.

MattyFenby wrote:When you say marked Lizardmen shouldnt be Core are you referring to their Sacred Spawnings variant lists?


That is exactly what I mean. In the 6th Ed. books Sacred Marks didn't change the position of the unit in the Force Organization Chart, so you'd have essentially elite Core units instead of them being moved to Special where they probably SHOULD have been moved by being marked.

MattyFenby wrote:What is the source of the Khorne hate?


Okay, so a little bit of GW history...

The 1st edition of WFB had this rather poorly drawn picture of a Chaos Warrior smashing a Skeleton Warrior's face in with a mace. One of the early financiers for GW really liked the thought of Chaos, and they threw FAR more effort into developing Chaos than they did any other race. It's essentially baked into every atom of both GW games.

Well, in 3rd Ed. 40K you had a reasonably balanced Chaos book that was sort of set on its ear by some Index Astartes articles that introduced Appendix lists that didn't need permission representing the different founding Space Marine Legions, with Chaos getting far more perks than their Imperial counterparts. World Eaters, and Khorne in general, got a far better batch than even the rest of the Chaos lists. That got baked into Chaos 3.5 while being cranked up to, what my daughter would call, eleventy-ten.

Come time for 6th Ed's army book to come around, and Khorne gets Frenzy without moving said units out of their spots in the charts, which gives the units an extra attack AND immunity to Psychology. Just because they're angry.

As a combat veteran with a heavy focus on close combat, the thought that angrier fighters are somehow better than calmer trained fighters is ludicrous.

Seriously, screw Khorne…

MattyFenby wrote:That's interesting to not mix books. Do you find it ever hurts you against a certain race? I know I'm glad I brought a Beastherd in my last Hordes of Chaos game vs Dwarfs 6.5 because they ended up being my MVP that day. I think it would be cooler to keep the 3 split if they had made 3 books instead of just 2. I think thats what they did in 7th edition maybe?


Armies SHOULD have inherent weaknesses vs. their inherent strengths. Chaos being immune to that because FRICK YEAH CHAOS!!!!!!!!!!!! is bad game design. Playing favorites with ANY of your factions is bad game design. Introducing composition and structure into your edition of the game and then going out of your way to write even ONE faction who breaks those tenets let alone THREE that do is bad game design.

Picture being able to run an entire army of White Lions. Sounds stupid, right? Chaos can essentially do that. Better yet, picture an entire army of Cold One Chariots. Two of the three Chaos armies can do that, and the only reason the 3rd can't is because unless my memory serves and I have to edit this post Daemons didn't HAVE chariots in their section of the book. I challenge anyone to look at the fact that both of those armies can do pure Chariot forces and tell me with a straight face that that seems balanced. At all. It isn't.

When we build our Chaos armies, we build them where we think the units SHOULD slot in. It's why you won't ever see us run solid Chaos Knight armies. We both feel those should have been Special choices, Rare if Chosen or Marked. TWO Rare slots if both.

No other army has anything comparable with the exception of Empire's 1+ Knights as Core. Brets have Core Knights but have crap infantry to make up for it.

There should have simply been ally rules from the start, and have Chaos tied to those. It would have been more fair AND balanced.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
Very interesting and thoughtful responses. I'm not sure I'm in complete agreement on all of it but I understand where you're coming from I think.

Having heard all youve said about how OP multi-book lists or Dwarfs 6.5 lists or Lizardmen Sacred Spawnings lists could be, my question is this: were those generally the lists that dominated in competitive tournaments?


EDIT: I would have LOVED if they had made it so you cannot use multi book chaos lists in tournaments and had just gone ahead and released a book for everybody: Warriors of Chaos (Chaos Humans), Daemons of Chaos, Beasts of Chaos (includes Chaos Ogres/Dragon Ogres, Chaos Trolls) , Dark Elves (essentially Chaos Elves), Chaos Dwarfs (including Hobgoblins and Black Orcs aka Chaos Goblins and Chaos Orcs), and Tainted Ones (Chaos Lizardmen). Honestly could have milked way more money out of guys like me and theres enough units to split everything up and still have Special and Rare choices like you've said.
Edited by MattyFenby on 14-01-2021 16:24
 
Just Tony
I've given my grounds on the Dwarfs book, no need to rehash. You've already personally read it, if memory serves.

My issue is where it leads. Was Mutable Genus in the 3rd Ed. Tyranid book necessarily game breaking? It made it next to impossible to know what you were actually facing, AND made target priority difficult at best. Next thing you know, Guard and Chaos got it. THEN Marines. The run that it started was worse than the kick off to be sure, but the kick off setting the precedent was the issue.

Look at 7th Edition High Elves. Speed of Asuryan gave them Always Strikes First army wide. Arguments in defense of this was "Well, they're only St 3." Then Dark Elves got Hatred army wide. Army wide rerolls on the first round of combat. Each book only went worse from there. Where would you set the line that the bad started? I know where I PERSONALLY set it, and that's back with High Elves. Now, if it wasn't for the reckless abandon of Dwarfs 6.5 we probably wouldn't have gotten to the point of the High Elves. By the time 7th came out 0-1 or 0-2 units had no limits. All part and parcel with the lack of restraint from 6.5's writer.

Marks and Spawnings essentially let you perk your army and break the FOC with no repercussions. Even the appendix lists had limits to any perks you added.

That's ultimately my issue with it. And my brother is even anti-appendix list, so he's further that way than I am.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
I definitely hear where you guys are coming from.

I did read the Dwarfs complaints and I think some may be fair...

BUT... did Knights of Chaos only armies actually dominate in tournaments? Were Sacred Spawnings of Tlazcotl lists really the most common way Lizardmen were run? Were Dwarfs running everybody over? I hear you loud and clear about 7th Edition ASF but I'm talking about strictly 6th Edition Tournaments. I'm not trolling here; I truly never played in any tournaments and I have no idea what the "meta" actually was. I had read a whole lot of chatter that it was heavy cavalry death stars but we haven't found those to be as scary in our games this past year learning how to play Fantasy and I recently had a game where I was crafting a Chaos army to run up against Dwarfs 6.5 and I was strongly advised NOT to "run the bus" of all Knights and Chariots. So I honestly have no idea WHAT the "meta" really is. All I know is that the Wood Elves are absolutely nasty and they're super tough to engage.

I would be very interested in seeing what Lists people in highly competitive Tournaments ran in like 2004-2006 and what Lists were generally the winners.


EDIT: And IF the winners of most Tournaments were Dwarfs 6.5 Lists and Lizardmen Spawnings Lists and Warriors of Khorne Lists then I will be very persuaded by you and your brother's point of view on the whole thing.
Edited by MattyFenby on 15-01-2021 14:50
 
Just Tony
All knight armies were rumored to dominate everything. Chaos Knights have more of a damage output capacity than your average Knights, so an army of nothing BUT those becomes a problem, or an army of three extremely elite units satisfying the "Core tax" allowing for the rest of the points to be spent on more extremely elite units.

That's the main issue I personally have, but it gets worse when Mark's and Chosen enter in.

And does imbalance need to mean tourney successful?

Also, what dominated tourneys in my area is anecdotal at best, especially given how my usual club ran their forces. The premier Lafayette store was the one where I'd come across netlists, and I didn't tourney there unless gaming simply wasn't happening in Ft. Wayne.

Where I usually played we would build our tourney forces based on a comp scoresheet that was provided on GW's website
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
The Knights are just so expensive that it seems wicked hard to make that work (but you KNOW I am extremely interested in trying to make it work)

Imbalance doesnt NEED to mean it won a lot of real life games but large amount of real life wins would definitely sway me more than an opinion not backed up by tourney success

Just out of curiosity though, DID Dwarfs 6.5, or Sacred Spawnings, or Knights-Only dominate in either of those places?

Like I said, I'm really not trolling here, I'm trying to work out what the best lists are because my buddy is the extremely competitive sort and we naturally gravitate towards treating it like a mix between a hockey championship and a war where exploiting the meta is respected rather than annoying. If any certain thing WAS dominant for too long and making things boring we could ban it at that point after trying all our ideas to beat it.

When I first started reading up on 6th I was terrified of magic being OP and we adopted house rules to tone down the magic and I was terrified of the heavy cavalry being too much and even started coming up with ways to equip Orcs and Lizardmen and other races with Pikemen to counter them but over the past 20 games or so where we've started to get comfortable with the rules I've never felt that we needed to do that. The only real trends we've established is that magic isnt actually that scary unless it's Teclis or some other stacked wizard and that Wood Elves are incredibly tough to beat. 20 is far too small a sample size, though, so of course that could all change in the next few years if we learn new better ways to play
 
Just Tony
I don't have tourney results at all collated for the run of 6th. I'm not sure anyone does. The best I've gotten is "This is my experience" sports of things. Mr. Baldruck, or something very similar, on dakkadakka came into a thread discussing OP things with a nice picture of some Grand Tournament trophies and entirely different experiences than I had. He asserted that cav units dominated the tourney scene, and also showed that his tourney experience with 6.5 Dwarfs showed a different list build than what I was seeing.

I know it's not what you want to read, but I simply don't have stored empirical data for tournament play.

Here's something for you to try, as it's something I did on a bored night at work. Go to the LAST PAGE of threads in Warhammer Legacy on dakka. I know there were quite a few people posting their tourney lists at about the turn if the game. Could give you at least a few answers.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
jonathan e
Just Tony wrote:
When we build our Chaos armies, we build them where we think the units SHOULD slot in. It's why you won't ever see us run solid Chaos Knight armies. We both feel those should have been Special choices, Rare if Chosen or Marked. TWO Rare slots if both.

...

There should have simply been ally rules from the start, and have Chaos tied to those. It would have been more fair AND balanced.


I just want to chime in and give this a HELL YEAH. I was going to give it more than that, but I wonder if "let's talk about my own personal list of yesteryear" shouldn't be its own thread.
Edited by jonathan e on 19-01-2021 05:50
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MattyFenby
I did read that thread and it helped to gas up my fears of Chaos Knights. But they just cost so many points. That's I think the saving grace that makes me not as mad at the way Chaos works. Yes, you could field Knights as core but they will still cost the same as Special Knights in a Beasts or Daemons List.

I think I'm realizing maybe this sort of thing is a cumulative effect and something that isn't workable at 1500 points could be very dominant up at 4k?

I am gonna continue trying out things in my games and I'll keep searching for lists that are hyped up to see if they can live up to it.


Did NOT mean to derail the thread from the Batrep. Like I said I enjoy just seeing how experienced players do it so please keep the Batreps coming
 
TinyLegions
Regardless of which knights that you use, you need to ask yourself one question. Do you have any can-openers? Meaning do you have access to the Lore of Metal, do you have access to high strength monsters, do you have access to the kind of artillery that would tear up knights, do you have GW troops? Most armies(not all) have some kind of can opener in their bag of tricks.

It is an anecdote that I have said before, but bears repeating. The one league that I played in during the 6th had a guy that took an all cavalry H.E. army. His win record was 0(zero). I attribute his lack of wins to his inexperience and his choice of troops equally.(out of 2250 pts 1500 was fixed for the league and viewable with 750 blind for the game) Even though he got to my army fast, I would still lay a few shots in his ranks with my cannon and bolt throwers. Whatever was left bounced off my dwarf army generally.

The only improvement from regular knights that the Chaos variant has is that they have a consistent strength as they were not allowed to use Lances.(not sure why they got rid of them) Adding the Khorne mark to the mix, and your opponent gave you the potential to hand you the game with the rules of Frenzy in exchange for one more attack and for the low price of about 40 to 50 pts per model. If you are having trouble setting up traps with your army against a Khorne army, then you are doing it wrong. To paraphrase Blue Oyster Cult: Don't fear the Chaos Knight.

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Edited by TinyLegions on 21-01-2021 18:53
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Just Tony
Well put. I had a Frenzied unit led around by its nose for an entire battle by a couple of birds. I guess the term is "kiting". Anyway, it showed me how inherently flawed Frenzy is if someone knows how to exploit it. Chaff units are great for that. Fast cav baits a charge. At this point the opponent will usually brag a touch. "My Chosen Khorne Knights declare a charge." Spiffy. Flee. At this point whatever fast unit you have that can stay JUST out of charge range leads this very expensive unit to the edge of the board where it will be ineffective for the whole game.

There are a few armies where I may have no better unit than a Frenzied troop choice, and in those instances I will have to basically throw my own chaff down to keep that unit from being led around by its nose. The Plague Monks I'm about to paint up come to mind...
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MattyFenby
That all 100% makes sense to me which leads be back to this:

IS a khorne knights army broken or OP in any way then? Because it seems like you shouldnt be mad about a list that is easily trapped and kited, right? Did I misunderstand you Tony, and you were saying theyre unbalanced because of how BAD they are?
 
jonathan e
MattyFenby wrote:

That all 100% makes sense to me which leads be back to this:

IS a khorne knights army broken or OP in any way then? Because it seems like you shouldnt be mad about a list that is easily trapped and kited, right? Did I misunderstand you Tony, and you were saying theyre unbalanced because of how BAD they are?


Personally, I am forever mad about the Khorne armies for the same reason I'm mad about skirmishy Lizardmen or Wood Elves: they are the rock to my scissors, and I know I'm going to have my work cut out to handle them. Immunity to Psychology, even temporary, plus bonus attacks on already strong profiles, and extra Dispel dice? You might as well paint your nails silver and rub yourself head to toe in garlic. Like many bad matchups, it would doubtless be easier if I embraced the Ghoul pack and had a few cheap bait-and-catch units running around, but the specific models I'd like are US-made and cost as much to ship over here as to buy in the first place.

Last time I faced a Khorne army, in the hands of an inexperienced player, I was able to hold it to a scenario win and a draw on points, and that was with forewarning (I swapped in a Blood Dragon Vampire who could hold off even a Daemon Prince for a few rounds in a challenge) and a lot of luck (rolling two Curses of Years, casting both with Irresistible Force, and keeping them out there thanks to m'colleague's inability to show tens on four dice).
Edited by jonathan e on 21-01-2021 15:37
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MattyFenby
The garlic line cracked me up

OK, the rock/paper/scissors angle makes sense. I dont know VC at all so that is interesting to hear
 
TinyLegions
jonathan e wrote:

MattyFenby wrote:

That all 100% makes sense to me which leads be back to this:

IS a khorne knights army broken or OP in any way then? Because it seems like you shouldnt be mad about a list that is easily trapped and kited, right? Did I misunderstand you Tony, and you were saying theyre unbalanced because of how BAD they are?


Personally, I am forever mad about the Khorne armies for the same reason I'm mad about skirmishy Lizardmen or Wood Elves: they are the rock to my scissors, and I know I'm going to have my work cut out to handle them. Immunity to Psychology, even temporary, plus bonus attacks on already strong profiles, and extra Dispel dice? You might as well paint your nails silver and rub yourself head to toe in garlic. Like many bad matchups, it would doubtless be easier if I embraced the Ghoul pack and had a few cheap bait-and-catch units running around, but the specific models I'd like are US-made and cost as much to ship over here as to buy in the first place.

Last time I faced a Khorne army, in the hands of an inexperienced player, I was able to hold it to a scenario win and a draw on points, and that was with forewarning (I swapped in a Blood Dragon Vampire who could hold off even a Daemon Prince for a few rounds in a challenge) and a lot of luck (rolling two Curses of Years, casting both with Irresistible Force, and keeping them out there thanks to m'colleague's inability to show tens on four dice).


As I said above, not all but most armies have counters to knight heavy armies. VC armies are limited in can-openers, and the undead rules may actually hurt you instead of help you, but I think that it can be done. If I am reading that correctly you were a fan of Blood Dragon's, which is a blood line that I am fond of as well, and actually may work better than the other bloodlines. In going against chaos in general, and Khorne specifically with a BD army, why not go BD heavy in your army? I mean heavy on the specials to taste, all vampire characters, and whatever left in your required core units. Your core units are bigger anvils than most large units even in smaller numbers. Even if you go mano-e-mano with your elites, they are just as capable of dishing out if you get a moderate match-up. Housing your characters in with your elites, and you can give Knorne a run for their money.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
TinyLegions
MattyFenby wrote:

That all 100% makes sense to me which leads be back to this:

IS a khorne knights army broken or OP in any way then? Because it seems like you shouldnt be mad about a list that is easily trapped and kited, right? Did I misunderstand you Tony, and you were saying theyre unbalanced because of how BAD they are?


The short answer is that it's complicated. Don't get me wrong, a Khorne army like any other army can be a tough army if used by an experienced player, and on paper they pack a punch that appears unstoppable. What I was getting at was that people think that a Khorne army has an auto-win button, and they are wrong in that assumption. Bulking up on three or four units of knights and that alone and you are subjecting yourself to a possibility of running up against a player that can setup traps using tactics that JT is talking about.(I have my anti-Khorne tactics that I try to employ with my armies as well) Once trapped and so much as loose a round of combat, which is likely given the common trap of being forced into a flank charge, and they are just standard Chaos Knights with extra points for the mark that is now significantly diminished and useless for its main purpose as a buff to CC. As hard hitting as Khorne armies can be, I contend that they are the most vulnerable of the five flavors of Chaos.

As an anecdote: The guy that I remember using a Khorne army had a balanced force that used most of the main units in the chaos collection, and he had experience in playing the game since the first edition, but the reason that he was playing Khorne had nothing to do with its power. His official statement on his Khorne army was that when he started he did not want to waste time painting so many models to get an army ready for the table top. He proved that Khorne was not the x factor for his winning, because he was able to smoke you with his Dark Elves with just as much frequency as his Khorne army all during the 6th edition before the update that DE got. This guy was a very good player, and it was worth loosing to him as you learned so much about your army and play style.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
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