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Mr. E Contemplates His Slaaneshi Past (musings on a toothless Chaos army)
jonathan e
Just Tony's (entirely legitimate) tubthumping about the state of Chaos in sixth edition WFB has set me to thinking about my own history with the army. This is a sort of retroactive "am I part of the problem?" thread, or maybe it's a reward for myself for being good and making all my phone calls today.

See, I had one of those "50 gets you 2000 points" Chaos armies back in fifth edition: two boxes of Warriors, one of Knights, a Chariot and a couple of characters. All that and a Lord of Change for my birthday. Spray 'em black, drybrush 'em silver, make a complete pig's ear of the Greater Daemon and job was a good 'un.

The games were a drudge. I remember six sorry weekends of trudging across a table into the teeth of my friend Mike's fourth edition box set High Elves, Chariots immobilised by an ocean of S3 shots, troops kicked in the 'nards and left for dead by High Magic and punished in the afterlife by my complete inability to get my Chaos Lord out of the Black Gem of Gnar, or not turned into a Spawn, or into combat at all after his Daemonic Steed suffered spontaneous existence failure.

Roll around sixth edition and after a disastrous foray into Orc and Goblin land I was determined never to take another terror or panic test again if I could help it. I broke out the purple paint, bought a job lot of Daemonettes and a Warhammer Quest Chaos Warrior (I'd lost the mounted General somewhere), and went to work. Result thus.

Sorcerer Lord: Mark of Slaanesh, Chaos Daemon Sword, Talisman of Protection: 390
Exalted Champion: Mark of Slaanesh, greataxe, Crown of Everlasting Conquest: 174

12 Warriors: Mark of Slaanesh, halberds, Champion, musician and standard: 242
12 Warriors: Mark of Slaanesh, shields, Champion, musician and standard: 230
5 Knights: Mark of Slaanesh, Champion, musician and standard (War Banner): 260
Chariot: Mark of Slaanesh: 130
Chariot: Mark of Slaanesh: 130

12 Daemonettes: 180
12 Daemonettes: 180
5 Furies: 75


In retrospect - am I the asshole here? It's certainly a very elite army, and mass Immunity to Panic is certainly a big deal, but even typing it all out and checking the sums has me thinking it could have been tuned up and turned over (especially if I'd found that infernal mounted Lord model). It has pretty middling saves for Chaos, no Chosen in sight, only six Power Dice to insult the intelligence and quite a lot of the models are feeble, Unstable Daemonettes who vanish in a whoosh of lavender if anyone looks at them funny. I don't even have the Rapturous Standard and I never took Beasts.
Edited by jonathan e on 21-01-2021 14:41
Warhammer transmissions at Malediction Games

VC original run: 20 / 6 / 21
VC comeback tour: 5 / 0 / 4
WE fresh start: -/-/-
 
https://maledicton.games
Just Tony
I think it comes down to optimization vs flavor. Choosing to run units that are behind the 8 ball as far as res goes plays more into the latter, while ItP can affect gameplay adversely is no different than running an undead force.

Now, if your list had been 8 man knights marked up and nothing else? My critique wouldn't be so kind.

We all have issues with those dangling overpowered option carrots. When I built my Vampire Counts army I had put in two 10 man Black Knights regiments to roll up the flanks. This REALLY came into its own in 7th where the Knights could potentially collapse a unit and overrun into another engaged unit and get a second round of combat in the same phase. I wound up planning those scenarios.

It took some introspection to realize I was doing it. My Minotaur army is legendary for the number of losses it has accrued, but it's a flavorful list that I'm not giving up on any time soon. That army has helped me to look past only seeing efficacy all the time (mostly) and now I start with a theme before the first model is bought.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
jonathan e
It's funny that you mention Black Knights. Back in the day I played Sylvanians almost exclusively and so I only had one unit of them: they were a proper meat grinder but many opponents were able to get their big points out of the way. During the comeback tour I've ended up with rather more old Empire Knights to slather in purple ink: every time I've tried two units of eight they've been the quiet stars of the army, even if they tend to be mauled down to half strength more often than not.

This old Chaos army was dictated pretty much by the figures available, so eight man Knight units weren't going to be happening (mercifully). If I had my time over again I'd probably do a 1000 point mostly-Marauder army (as an excuse to use my beloved sixth edition Giant) and then summon in a Keeper or Prince and his little friends for 2000 point games. That or a delivery system for Dragon Ogres as I have such a soft spot for those models. It's occasionally tempting, but I think about the queue of neglected Chaos Dwarfs and badly-in-need-of-a-revamp Tomb Kings, and... yeah.

Your Minotaur army is almost the sort of thing that gives me nightmares, except - you don't run Khorne. I have to admire your conviction in that regard, shunning the mountain of Dispel dice and bonus attacks.
Warhammer transmissions at Malediction Games

VC original run: 20 / 6 / 21
VC comeback tour: 5 / 0 / 4
WE fresh start: -/-/-
 
https://maledicton.games
MattyFenby
I like the sound of Optimization vs Flavor.

I know I will get the looks for this but I am actually in that early phase you guys went through where I WANT to try out the most OP and broken (legal) combinations I can and also see if there are ways to counter them.

I actually would WANT to make 8man Chosen Knight Units all Marked up work but it just seems like such a point sink and that they can be defeated by a smart general who uses magic, shooting, unbreakable units, pikes, spears, and positioning/terrain to bleed it to death.

I'm not sure if there was a Major League of 6th Edition WHFB that 8man Chosen Marked Knights WOULD actually become the dominant meta. I only have about 20 games of experience so far though so as we get better at the game I could find out I'm dead wrong and we might find ourselves creating little house rules here and there.

I'm not familiar with Vamps as I've never played with or against them but I definitely like hearing about you going through your exploit-the-meta phase.

I have no shame about running a Khorne army if its gonna bring me the win. Maybe after a few years we will be done with our little League games but for now I want to be the one causing nightmares....
 
jonathan e
MattyFenby wrote:I know I will get the looks for this but I am actually in that early phase you guys went through where I WANT to try out the most OP and broken (legal) combinations I can and also see if there are ways to counter them.


It's a phase one goes through, for sure. I used to play the horrible Sylvanian army with swarms of cheap Dire Wolves and Bat Swarms in Core plus Summon powers and magic resistance out the wazoo, so I'm not in any position to judge.

I used to play a lot of Warmachine and that culture is very much "to win, you either stop your opponent doing anything, or ensure nothing they can do matters." It's a horrible way to spend your spare time and I now do my utmost to avoid boring "solved game" that's effectively decided during the list building stage. I generally make a point of talking about lists with my opponents and working out how we both bring guns to a gunfight, as it were. So the lists are tuned, because the objective of the game is to win, but not overtuned or played like a proper helmet because it's still a game for two players.

WRT the Chaos Knight armies: I don't know if it's the One Build To Rule Them All or simply the most obvious power build available to the Hordes book.

MattyFenby wrote:I have no shame about running a Khorne army if its gonna bring me the win. Maybe after a few years we will be done with our little League games but for now I want to be the one causing nightmares....


You do you. I'll play into a Khorne army if it's what someone wants to bring: all I ask is that I know it's coming so I don't bring an army that's too tame to make the play worth playing. List tailoring was hawked and spat on back in the day, at least in the forums I was hanging out on, but in this day and age when every game is anticipated for weeks and a bit of an excursion, I like knowing they'll be worth the trouble.
Warhammer transmissions at Malediction Games

VC original run: 20 / 6 / 21
VC comeback tour: 5 / 0 / 4
WE fresh start: -/-/-
 
https://maledicton.games
MattyFenby
I like that you communicate your intentions to the opponent. My buddy and I have this sort of gentlemen's agreement that our "League" games we are playing are fair play for cut throat optimized lists and we talk smack each month during the wait and then reveal the lists a week in advance and talk more smack.

It's been pretty fun and we like challenging the other one to try and form the One Build. I've been doing some tinkering with some lists to try and bring unbeatable rosters this year. November and December were both draws, Aug, Sept, & Oct were all losses by massacre, and before that we had a COVID stoppage... so I havent won a game in about a year now, so I am HUNGRY for redemption this time around.
 
Just Tony
I mean, it's only natural. I'd love to organize a single elimination tourney where I could drop my most competitive build, but I wouldn't want to play like that all the time.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
jonathan e
MattyFenby wrote:
It's been pretty fun and we like challenging the other one to try and form the One Build. I've been doing some tinkering with some lists to try and bring unbeatable rosters this year. November and December were both draws, Aug, Sept, & Oct were all losses by massacre, and before that we had a COVID stoppage... so I havent won a game in about a year now, so I am HUNGRY for redemption this time around.


Good luck!

I always find the search for the One Build that can truly Take All Comers a bit of a fool's errand, personally, but that's after years of trying and I can't say I didn't have a good time along the way. What I've settled into now is shaped by the models, and by the amount of rules I can be bothered with wrangling at any given moment, and I'm pretty happy with it. Admittedly I have a bit of an edge in that I can just swap Vampire bloodlines and, by changing two characters, have a suddenly very different feel to the army... but still.
Warhammer transmissions at Malediction Games

VC original run: 20 / 6 / 21
VC comeback tour: 5 / 0 / 4
WE fresh start: -/-/-
 
https://maledicton.games
MattyFenby
Ooooooooooh I would LOVE a single elimination tourney with all comp builds.

I fantasize about a day when the Khorne Bowl is a 16 team bracket instead of just me and my buddy. But its still pretty fun as it is now
 
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