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Khorne Knight Armies and other boogeyman army lists
MattyFenby
I definitely hear where you guys are coming from.

I did read the Dwarfs complaints and I think some may be fair...

BUT... did Knights of Chaos only armies actually dominate in tournaments? Were Sacred Spawnings of Tlazcotl lists really the most common way Lizardmen were run? Were Dwarfs running everybody over? I hear you loud and clear about 7th Edition ASF but I'm talking about strictly 6th Edition Tournaments. I'm not trolling here; I truly never played in any tournaments and I have no idea what the "meta" actually was. I had read a whole lot of chatter that it was heavy cavalry death stars but we haven't found those to be as scary in our games this past year learning how to play Fantasy and I recently had a game where I was crafting a Chaos army to run up against Dwarfs 6.5 and I was strongly advised NOT to "run the bus" of all Knights and Chariots. So I honestly have no idea WHAT the "meta" really is. All I know is that the Wood Elves are absolutely nasty and they're super tough to engage.

I would be very interested in seeing what Lists people in highly competitive Tournaments ran in like 2004-2006 and what Lists were generally the winners.


EDIT: And IF the winners of most Tournaments were Dwarfs 6.5 Lists and Lizardmen Spawnings Lists and Warriors of Khorne Lists then I will be very persuaded by you and your brother's point of view on the whole thing.
Edited by MattyFenby on 15-01-2021 14:50
 
Just Tony
All knight armies were rumored to dominate everything. Chaos Knights have more of a damage output capacity than your average Knights, so an army of nothing BUT those becomes a problem, or an army of three extremely elite units satisfying the "Core tax" allowing for the rest of the points to be spent on more extremely elite units.

That's the main issue I personally have, but it gets worse when Mark's and Chosen enter in.

And does imbalance need to mean tourney successful?

Also, what dominated tourneys in my area is anecdotal at best, especially given how my usual club ran their forces. The premier Lafayette store was the one where I'd come across netlists, and I didn't tourney there unless gaming simply wasn't happening in Ft. Wayne.

Where I usually played we would build our tourney forces based on a comp scoresheet that was provided on GW's website
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MattyFenby
The Knights are just so expensive that it seems wicked hard to make that work (but you KNOW I am extremely interested in trying to make it work)

Imbalance doesnt NEED to mean it won a lot of real life games but large amount of real life wins would definitely sway me more than an opinion not backed up by tourney success

Just out of curiosity though, DID Dwarfs 6.5, or Sacred Spawnings, or Knights-Only dominate in either of those places?

Like I said, I'm really not trolling here, I'm trying to work out what the best lists are because my buddy is the extremely competitive sort and we naturally gravitate towards treating it like a mix between a hockey championship and a war where exploiting the meta is respected rather than annoying. If any certain thing WAS dominant for too long and making things boring we could ban it at that point after trying all our ideas to beat it.

When I first started reading up on 6th I was terrified of magic being OP and we adopted house rules to tone down the magic and I was terrified of the heavy cavalry being too much and even started coming up with ways to equip Orcs and Lizardmen and other races with Pikemen to counter them but over the past 20 games or so where we've started to get comfortable with the rules I've never felt that we needed to do that. The only real trends we've established is that magic isnt actually that scary unless it's Teclis or some other stacked wizard and that Wood Elves are incredibly tough to beat. 20 is far too small a sample size, though, so of course that could all change in the next few years if we learn new better ways to play
 
Just Tony
I don't have tourney results at all collated for the run of 6th. I'm not sure anyone does. The best I've gotten is "This is my experience" sports of things. Mr. Baldruck, or something very similar, on dakkadakka came into a thread discussing OP things with a nice picture of some Grand Tournament trophies and entirely different experiences than I had. He asserted that cav units dominated the tourney scene, and also showed that his tourney experience with 6.5 Dwarfs showed a different list build than what I was seeing.

I know it's not what you want to read, but I simply don't have stored empirical data for tournament play.

Here's something for you to try, as it's something I did on a bored night at work. Go to the LAST PAGE of threads in Warhammer Legacy on dakka. I know there were quite a few people posting their tourney lists at about the turn if the game. Could give you at least a few answers.
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jonathan e
Just Tony wrote:
When we build our Chaos armies, we build them where we think the units SHOULD slot in. It's why you won't ever see us run solid Chaos Knight armies. We both feel those should have been Special choices, Rare if Chosen or Marked. TWO Rare slots if both.

...

There should have simply been ally rules from the start, and have Chaos tied to those. It would have been more fair AND balanced.


I just want to chime in and give this a HELL YEAH. I was going to give it more than that, but I wonder if "let's talk about my own personal list of yesteryear" shouldn't be its own thread.
Edited by jonathan e on 19-01-2021 05:50
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MattyFenby
I did read that thread and it helped to gas up my fears of Chaos Knights. But they just cost so many points. That's I think the saving grace that makes me not as mad at the way Chaos works. Yes, you could field Knights as core but they will still cost the same as Special Knights in a Beasts or Daemons List.

I think I'm realizing maybe this sort of thing is a cumulative effect and something that isn't workable at 1500 points could be very dominant up at 4k?

I am gonna continue trying out things in my games and I'll keep searching for lists that are hyped up to see if they can live up to it.


Did NOT mean to derail the thread from the Batrep. Like I said I enjoy just seeing how experienced players do it so please keep the Batreps coming
 
TinyLegions
Regardless of which knights that you use, you need to ask yourself one question. Do you have any can-openers? Meaning do you have access to the Lore of Metal, do you have access to high strength monsters, do you have access to the kind of artillery that would tear up knights, do you have GW troops? Most armies(not all) have some kind of can opener in their bag of tricks.

It is an anecdote that I have said before, but bears repeating. The one league that I played in during the 6th had a guy that took an all cavalry H.E. army. His win record was 0(zero). I attribute his lack of wins to his inexperience and his choice of troops equally.(out of 2250 pts 1500 was fixed for the league and viewable with 750 blind for the game) Even though he got to my army fast, I would still lay a few shots in his ranks with my cannon and bolt throwers. Whatever was left bounced off my dwarf army generally.

The only improvement from regular knights that the Chaos variant has is that they have a consistent strength as they were not allowed to use Lances.(not sure why they got rid of them) Adding the Khorne mark to the mix, and your opponent gave you the potential to hand you the game with the rules of Frenzy in exchange for one more attack and for the low price of about 40 to 50 pts per model. If you are having trouble setting up traps with your army against a Khorne army, then you are doing it wrong. To paraphrase Blue Oyster Cult: Don't fear the Chaos Knight.

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Edited by TinyLegions on 21-01-2021 18:53
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Just Tony
Well put. I had a Frenzied unit led around by its nose for an entire battle by a couple of birds. I guess the term is "kiting". Anyway, it showed me how inherently flawed Frenzy is if someone knows how to exploit it. Chaff units are great for that. Fast cav baits a charge. At this point the opponent will usually brag a touch. "My Chosen Khorne Knights declare a charge." Spiffy. Flee. At this point whatever fast unit you have that can stay JUST out of charge range leads this very expensive unit to the edge of the board where it will be ineffective for the whole game.

There are a few armies where I may have no better unit than a Frenzied troop choice, and in those instances I will have to basically throw my own chaff down to keep that unit from being led around by its nose. The Plague Monks I'm about to paint up come to mind...
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MattyFenby
That all 100% makes sense to me which leads be back to this:

IS a khorne knights army broken or OP in any way then? Because it seems like you shouldnt be mad about a list that is easily trapped and kited, right? Did I misunderstand you Tony, and you were saying theyre unbalanced because of how BAD they are?
 
jonathan e
MattyFenby wrote:

That all 100% makes sense to me which leads be back to this:

IS a khorne knights army broken or OP in any way then? Because it seems like you shouldnt be mad about a list that is easily trapped and kited, right? Did I misunderstand you Tony, and you were saying theyre unbalanced because of how BAD they are?


Personally, I am forever mad about the Khorne armies for the same reason I'm mad about skirmishy Lizardmen or Wood Elves: they are the rock to my scissors, and I know I'm going to have my work cut out to handle them. Immunity to Psychology, even temporary, plus bonus attacks on already strong profiles, and extra Dispel dice? You might as well paint your nails silver and rub yourself head to toe in garlic. Like many bad matchups, it would doubtless be easier if I embraced the Ghoul pack and had a few cheap bait-and-catch units running around, but the specific models I'd like are US-made and cost as much to ship over here as to buy in the first place.

Last time I faced a Khorne army, in the hands of an inexperienced player, I was able to hold it to a scenario win and a draw on points, and that was with forewarning (I swapped in a Blood Dragon Vampire who could hold off even a Daemon Prince for a few rounds in a challenge) and a lot of luck (rolling two Curses of Years, casting both with Irresistible Force, and keeping them out there thanks to m'colleague's inability to show tens on four dice).
Edited by jonathan e on 21-01-2021 15:37
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MattyFenby
The garlic line cracked me up

OK, the rock/paper/scissors angle makes sense. I dont know VC at all so that is interesting to hear
 
TinyLegions
jonathan e wrote:

MattyFenby wrote:

That all 100% makes sense to me which leads be back to this:

IS a khorne knights army broken or OP in any way then? Because it seems like you shouldnt be mad about a list that is easily trapped and kited, right? Did I misunderstand you Tony, and you were saying theyre unbalanced because of how BAD they are?


Personally, I am forever mad about the Khorne armies for the same reason I'm mad about skirmishy Lizardmen or Wood Elves: they are the rock to my scissors, and I know I'm going to have my work cut out to handle them. Immunity to Psychology, even temporary, plus bonus attacks on already strong profiles, and extra Dispel dice? You might as well paint your nails silver and rub yourself head to toe in garlic. Like many bad matchups, it would doubtless be easier if I embraced the Ghoul pack and had a few cheap bait-and-catch units running around, but the specific models I'd like are US-made and cost as much to ship over here as to buy in the first place.

Last time I faced a Khorne army, in the hands of an inexperienced player, I was able to hold it to a scenario win and a draw on points, and that was with forewarning (I swapped in a Blood Dragon Vampire who could hold off even a Daemon Prince for a few rounds in a challenge) and a lot of luck (rolling two Curses of Years, casting both with Irresistible Force, and keeping them out there thanks to m'colleague's inability to show tens on four dice).


As I said above, not all but most armies have counters to knight heavy armies. VC armies are limited in can-openers, and the undead rules may actually hurt you instead of help you, but I think that it can be done. If I am reading that correctly you were a fan of Blood Dragon's, which is a blood line that I am fond of as well, and actually may work better than the other bloodlines. In going against chaos in general, and Khorne specifically with a BD army, why not go BD heavy in your army? I mean heavy on the specials to taste, all vampire characters, and whatever left in your required core units. Your core units are bigger anvils than most large units even in smaller numbers. Even if you go mano-e-mano with your elites, they are just as capable of dishing out if you get a moderate match-up. Housing your characters in with your elites, and you can give Knorne a run for their money.
Your Benevolent dictator

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TinyLegions
MattyFenby wrote:

That all 100% makes sense to me which leads be back to this:

IS a khorne knights army broken or OP in any way then? Because it seems like you shouldnt be mad about a list that is easily trapped and kited, right? Did I misunderstand you Tony, and you were saying theyre unbalanced because of how BAD they are?


The short answer is that it's complicated. Don't get me wrong, a Khorne army like any other army can be a tough army if used by an experienced player, and on paper they pack a punch that appears unstoppable. What I was getting at was that people think that a Khorne army has an auto-win button, and they are wrong in that assumption. Bulking up on three or four units of knights and that alone and you are subjecting yourself to a possibility of running up against a player that can setup traps using tactics that JT is talking about.(I have my anti-Khorne tactics that I try to employ with my armies as well) Once trapped and so much as loose a round of combat, which is likely given the common trap of being forced into a flank charge, and they are just standard Chaos Knights with extra points for the mark that is now significantly diminished and useless for its main purpose as a buff to CC. As hard hitting as Khorne armies can be, I contend that they are the most vulnerable of the five flavors of Chaos.

As an anecdote: The guy that I remember using a Khorne army had a balanced force that used most of the main units in the chaos collection, and he had experience in playing the game since the first edition, but the reason that he was playing Khorne had nothing to do with its power. His official statement on his Khorne army was that when he started he did not want to waste time painting so many models to get an army ready for the table top. He proved that Khorne was not the x factor for his winning, because he was able to smoke you with his Dark Elves with just as much frequency as his Khorne army all during the 6th edition before the update that DE got. This guy was a very good player, and it was worth loosing to him as you learned so much about your army and play style.
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jonathan e
TinyLegions wrote:
As I said above, not all but most armies have counters to knight heavy armies. VC armies are limited in can-openers, and the undead rules may actually hurt you instead of help you, but I think that it can be done. If I am reading that correctly you were a fan of Blood Dragon's, which is a blood line that I am fond of as well, and actually may work better than the other bloodlines. In going against chaos in general, and Khorne specifically with a BD army, why not go BD heavy in your army? I mean heavy on the specials to taste, all vampire characters, and whatever left in your required core units. Your core units are bigger anvils than most large units even in smaller numbers. Even if you go mano-e-mano with your elites, they are just as capable of dishing out if you get a moderate match-up. Housing your characters in with your elites, and you can give Knorne a run for their money.


I am, historically, a Von Carstein player to my bones, but I've been branching out since I started playing again. Generally speaking, I'll swap out my General and one Hero when I change Bloodline but otherwise things stay the same.

I have recently realised that I own enough Black Knights to do the Blood Dragon appendix list - the one where said Knights are Core units in exchange for giving up Necromancers altogether. You're tempting me to give it a try. From experience I know that Black Knights can hold out against Chaos Warriors in a protracted engagement, as long as nobody with a great weapon steps up to even the odds. Having Blood Dragon Thralls to meet the Chaos boys head on does have a certain appeal, and I do have those Knights of the White Wolf I haven't retooled yet...
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Just Tony
MattyFenby wrote:

That all 100% makes sense to me which leads be back to this:

IS a khorne knights army broken or OP in any way then? Because it seems like you shouldnt be mad about a list that is easily trapped and kited, right? Did I misunderstand you Tony, and you were saying theyre unbalanced because of how BAD they are?


The imbalance comes from where they can be slotted. Every other army that has Frenzied troops has them tied to a Special or Rare slot, with maybe two exceptions. Something doesn't have to be auto win to break the game, it can be something as simple as breaking precedent or gaining an advantage that isn't comparable with any list.
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MattyFenby
I hear you that it is a generous slotting but the points they cost just seems to offset my fears of it being out of control.

I may be na´ve here but the more I play 6th Edition the more I feel like the balance is honestly in a pretty good place. It seems like if you run any of these PowerList armies there ARE consistent ways to shut them down.

Having said that, I am INCREDIBLY motivated to try and build a scary Knights of Khorne list during this year's "League" games if I get assigned Chaos as my army for one of the matches...
 
TinyLegions
jonathan e wrote:

TinyLegions wrote:
As I said above, not all but most armies have counters to knight heavy armies. VC armies are limited in can-openers, and the undead rules may actually hurt you instead of help you, but I think that it can be done. If I am reading that correctly you were a fan of Blood Dragon's, which is a blood line that I am fond of as well, and actually may work better than the other bloodlines. In going against chaos in general, and Khorne specifically with a BD army, why not go BD heavy in your army? I mean heavy on the specials to taste, all vampire characters, and whatever left in your required core units. Your core units are bigger anvils than most large units even in smaller numbers. Even if you go mano-e-mano with your elites, they are just as capable of dishing out if you get a moderate match-up. Housing your characters in with your elites, and you can give Knorne a run for their money.


I am, historically, a Von Carstein player to my bones, but I've been branching out since I started playing again. Generally speaking, I'll swap out my General and one Hero when I change Bloodline but otherwise things stay the same.

I have recently realised that I own enough Black Knights to do the Blood Dragon appendix list - the one where said Knights are Core units in exchange for giving up Necromancers altogether. You're tempting me to give it a try. From experience I know that Black Knights can hold out against Chaos Warriors in a protracted engagement, as long as nobody with a great weapon steps up to even the odds. Having Blood Dragon Thralls to meet the Chaos boys head on does have a certain appeal, and I do have those Knights of the White Wolf I haven't retooled yet...


While I would concur that Von Carstein armies would have issues, they are not the worst of the five going up against Khorne. As stated before Ghouls would be a good addition to a VC army to combat Khorne units, likewise any chaff units that you can utilize like bats and wolves. Trick would be to use them more closer in concert to your main force to set the trap, as undead rules preclude the fleeing maneuvers if I recall correctly. As stated above your Black Knights can go toe to toe with Knorne Knights. How has been your experience with Grave Guard?

On another note, the irony is not lost to me that we are talking about different flavors of two of the most diverse armies in the game. You are gong to have weird stuff happen when you have these oddities happen.
Edited by TinyLegions on 23-01-2021 11:03
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jonathan e
TinyLegions wrote:While I would concur that Von Carstein armies would have issues, they are not the worst of the five going up against Khorne. As stated before Ghouls would be a good addition to a VC army to combat Khorne units, likewise any chaff units that you can utilize like bats and wolves. Trick would be to use them more closer in concert to your main force to set the trap, as undead rules preclude the fleeing maneuvers if I recall correctly. As stated above your Black Knights can go toe to toe with Knorne Knights. How has been your experience with Grave Guard?


I freely admit that part of my issue with the nemesis armies is that my own collection lacks a few elements. I don't add things to the army until I find models I like and my previous Ghouls (while they look nice) are much too brittle for actual battlefield usage. I must pull my finger out and actually order some of the Crocodile Games ones; they're a good match for the Beorg Bearstruck model I plan to use as a Strigoi Vampire...

Grave Guard are fine in their place. The Sylvanian half of my collection has a unit of 20 Drakenhof Guard whose 4+ save and S6 swing have long endeared them to me. In the main list I find myself not really wanting more M4 combat troops once my Skeleton units are bought and paid for, so I tend to use the slots for more aggressive pieces - Black Knights and my customary giant Spirit Host. But that's a build choice: if I had gone heavy on Wolves and Ghouls in Core I'd probably consider sword and board Grave Guard a worthy use of the Special slot.
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TinyLegions
jonathan e wrote:

TinyLegions wrote:While I would concur that Von Carstein armies would have issues, they are not the worst of the five going up against Khorne. As stated before Ghouls would be a good addition to a VC army to combat Khorne units, likewise any chaff units that you can utilize like bats and wolves. Trick would be to use them more closer in concert to your main force to set the trap, as undead rules preclude the fleeing maneuvers if I recall correctly. As stated above your Black Knights can go toe to toe with Knorne Knights. How has been your experience with Grave Guard?


I freely admit that part of my issue with the nemesis armies is that my own collection lacks a few elements. I don't add things to the army until I find models I like and my previous Ghouls (while they look nice) are much too brittle for actual battlefield usage. I must pull my finger out and actually order some of the Crocodile Games ones; they're a good match for the Beorg Bearstruck model I plan to use as a Strigoi Vampire...

Grave Guard are fine in their place. The Sylvanian half of my collection has a unit of 20 Drakenhof Guard whose 4+ save and S6 swing have long endeared them to me. In the main list I find myself not really wanting more M4 combat troops once my Skeleton units are bought and paid for, so I tend to use the slots for more aggressive pieces - Black Knights and my customary giant Spirit Host. But that's a build choice: if I had gone heavy on Wolves and Ghouls in Core I'd probably consider sword and board Grave Guard a worthy use of the Special slot.


Fair enough on both accounts. Having good models is just as important as anything else. I was going to edit the quoted post, but since you mentioned it, a Spirit Host is something that I would employ against Khorne armies as well. They will neuter all but the characters attacks, assuming that the Khorne Angel of Death is used as characters, so I would target non-character units with your spirit host and just about anything else can counter on a flank attack and do a lot of damage to a Khorne unit. Using a spirit host as a pinning unit while a unit of Black Knights working in tandem will cause anyone headaches.(I know that myself first hand) Khorne is not immune to that deadly combination.
Edited by TinyLegions on 23-01-2021 11:09
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jonathan e
TinyLegions wrote:Fair enough on both accounts. Having good models is just as important as anything else. I was going to edit the quoted post, but since you mentioned it, a Spirit Host is something that I would employ against Khorne armies as well. They will neuter all but the characters attacks, assuming that the Khorne Angel of Death is used as characters, so I would target non-character units with your spirit host and just about anything else can counter on a flank attack and do a lot of damage to a Khorne unit. Using a spirit host as a pinning unit while a unit of Black Knights working in tandem will cause anyone headaches.(I know that myself first hand) Khorne is not immune to that deadly combination.


What I like about this (as we derail the commentary on a Beastmen vs. Dwarfs battle report thread ever further) is that you keep on describing... things I do. I know it's all well meant so I'm trying not to get chippy about it, but I never said I don't know how to fight Khorne. It's just a pain in the arse of a matchup, with a lot of disadvantages (the free Dispel dice rankle, I wouldn't be whinging at all if it was Magic Resistance, but the God Of Wizards Are Nonces getting countermagic options that are... like having tons of wizards... has always felt like some proper through-the-looking-glass design).

It's like how I keep going on about Skaven. I do manage to beat the Skaven when I don't drop my brain for the first two turns (if I do, I do stupid things like get into a magic missile gunfight with the best magic missile casters in the game), but Warlock Engineers are still, frankly, broken-good.
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