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Classic Hammer » Warhammer Fantasy » 6th Edition
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Bretonnians, how do you like 'em?
Just Tony
I started collecting WFB stuff during 5th when I was given a handful of High Elves in a deal for some Dark Eldar. I sat on them doing nothing until I decided to go ahead and learn the system. I bought the 5th Ed. boxed set with the Lizzies and the Brets. After getting the army books for both my armies I discovered that a new edition of WFB was coming out, so I boxed up all my 5th Ed. books and magic cards and the like and waited on the 6th Ed. to hit.

Needless to say there was more than a little culture shock when the noble Arthurian Brets of my 5th Ed. book had been replaced with morally ambiguous caste system Brets. Not only did they lose any real nobility in their fluff, they lost competent foot troops as Men At Arms and Bowmen became little more than pink-ish Goblins in their stat lines. I think it's pretty obvious where I sit with how I view the army, but what are your thoughts? Do you prefer the grim n' gritty 6th Brets, or the overtly heroic and honorable Brets of 5th?
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
sotek222
Personally i like to blend fluff where I can. I feel as if some regions in Bretonnia are more like 5th edition and some are more like 6th, it just depends on how I look at it at the time. This is especially true when my group role-plays near bretonnia.

Thanks,
Matthew Masiello
"Prepare to embrace your creators in the stygian haunts of hell, barbarian", gasped the first soldier.

"Only after you have kissed the fleeting stead of death, wretch!" returned Grignr.
 
Just Tony
I can see that, but without a ton of house rules you can't fix the abyssmal stat lines on the M@A and Archers. I guess you could always simply run the pre-book list from Warhammer Annual, but I'm not exactly happy with the Lance Formation rules in that one either.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
sotek222
true enough the peasants were knocked down a peg too much, but for personal games I wouldn't be opposed to house rules that make them a bit better.
"Prepare to embrace your creators in the stygian haunts of hell, barbarian", gasped the first soldier.

"Only after you have kissed the fleeting stead of death, wretch!" returned Grignr.
 
TinyLegions
I do like the style of the 5th edition better personally. I never read the 5th edition book yet, but I think that I would prefer that more than what we got in the 6th. As far as the army list, I get why they gave them a WS of 2 but I would have at least liked something like a dismounted yeoman as a special choice. I would venture to suggest an upgrading system that you normally would see in Warhammer Ancient where you can buy better troops.
 
Galadrin
5th Edition certainly had the iconic Warhammer background. It was the culmination and polishing of the Warhammer world setting that started in 2e. The only aspect of earlier versions of the setting I preferred was the Karl Franz of 1987's WFRP 1e... 4e turned him into the "ultimate statesman" and all-around goody two-shoes. 3e Franz was a corrupt imbecile and pawing sycophant. Made for a very "grim yet hilarious" Empire!

What were Brets like in 6th? Commoners like Men at Arms and Bowmen certainly didn't have a bad statline in 5th—they had the normal human statline which most units in the game more or less shared.
 
Just Tony
Basically a grimmer version of the 5th Ed. books with Peasants being way understatted and the separation between the peasantry and the nobility was on a totalitarian dictator level. It essentially reduced anyone not a Knight or better to the same level as the Untouchables in India.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
Galadrin
Yikes, well I'll take the comic-y 5th Edition stuff any day. That was an edition that knew how to have fun!
 
TinyLegions
It just came to me but the Bretonnians in the 6th edition are very much alike to Westeros on "Game of Thrones," or for those who read, the "Song of Fire and Ice" series.
Edited by TinyLegions on 02-09-2015 20:07
 
Just Tony
Neat correlation. I still prefer the Arthurian theme to break up the constant grimdark. I'm also alone as a GW player insofar as I like a little altruism here and there to break up all the dystopian nihilism.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
TinyLegions
Let me put it this way, I think that they went too far on their dystopian works at GW. I would have toned it down a bit myself as a whole throughout the different themes that they had with their respective armies.
 
Just Tony
I don't want Disney, and I don't want Clive Barker. There's a happy medium, I promise you
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
nurglesmom
As far as gameplay go, I have to say I liked the Bretonnian infantry units in 6th. Turning them into peasant levies helped differentiate them from the well-trained infantry of the empire, and made sense in the "feudal" way the army was organized.

As for the grittyness of the fluff, I agree it was kind of a fail, mainly because it doesn't make a lot of sense. What do bretonnian knights aspire to? To serve the Lady and become a grail knight. And how do you do that? By being the epitome of a noble, selfless, heroic knight. So essentially we're supposed to believe that the same nobles who worship the Lady of the Lake also treat their serfs like crap. It certainly worked that way in the real world, but in a fantasy world were the presence and intentions of the deities are much more tangible, its quite a stretch to have us believe the knights of bretonnia would show such duplicity.
 
Just Tony
And this dude gets it.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
The_Worker
I always rather considered the 5th Edition Bretonnian background as much more reasonable. I think the less-capable Men at Arms statistics makes some sense as peasant levy, as opposed to trained Empire State Troops.

Not a massive fan of the 6th edition serf/knight divide, although I suppose it makes sense for somewhere like Mousillon.
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Just Tony
So as my brother and I push further into the Classichammer experience, we have thought about other armies we'd like to pick up. I had a Bret army once, and let it go. Now I'd like to build one up from scratch again, and I'm genuinely thinking about building it off of the preview list from Warhammer Annual instead of the 6th Ed. army book. I've decided WS2 Men at Arms is just pointless, and I have no desire to use them at their book stat line. I do, however, like the AB Lance rules better. Such choices I'll have to make...
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
Kakapo42
Just Tony wrote: Do you prefer the grim n' gritty 6th Brets, or the overtly heroic and honorable Brets of 5th?


Honestly, I like both just as much. I've also never really seen the two as mutually exclusive.

Now it might be because 5th edition was largely before my time, so 6th and 7th edition was what I was brought up on when it came to Warhammer Fantasy, but when I read through the 6th edition Bretonnian army book I walked away with the impression that while it was certainly dark in a lot of places, it wasn't quite as dark as I'd heard others make it out to be. In other words, after reading the 6th edition Bretonnian book, I still felt like I could invent a genuinely good, noble altruistic Arthurian Bretonnian character and fit it in seamlessly into that book's background. My personal theory is that it's down to how the background was conveyed (I feel like the actual descriptive text generally veered towards the bright noble end of things, while most of the darker material was in the artwork), but that might have just been my subjective experience.

Personally the Bretonnian characters I tend to come up with are intended to be good but jerks. They do genuinely want to do the right thing, they just have a very quaint monster punching-centric definition of what 'the right thing' is. So they do care about their peasantry (though again, in their own way which is less focused on economic development and improving living conditions and more focused on keeping them save from bad things) and will not hesitate to help out someone in need, but they also hunt Dragons (which in Warhammer are actually quite intelligent) for fun, will intervene on a damsel's behalf regardless of whether she wanted them to or not, and generally act not entirely unlike alpha-jocks in a high school movie. That's something of a simplification, but it's the general gist of where I start from.

Outside of that though, I tend to see it as something of a sliding scale. On the one hand you have the 5th edition style bright heroic gallant Arthurian nobles, on the other end are the devious corrupt dark ones, and most Bretonnians fall somewhere in between the two.

On the rules side, well again the 6th edition style is kind of what I was brought up on so the lack of a middle ground between (understated) peasant units and knights never really bothered me that much, but I could see myself living with the 5th edition way as well. It's only when you start moving past 6th/early 7th edition that I stop being flexible like that.

I'm also alone as a GW player insofar as I like a little altruism here and there to break up all the dystopian nihilism.


I'm definitely with you on that one, which is why I always hated all the extra grimdark elements they tried to inject into the post-4th edition Tau background in 40k.
Death to metaplots!
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Just Tony
Oh, you mean where for no good reason whatsoever they decide to make the Tau army a mind controlling totalitarian communist allegory? Yep, you can NOT call me a fan of that...
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
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