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A quick about Dwarfs
MattyFenby
I'm learning so much from you guys I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the info.

Tiny, that's very interesting to consider not bringing a Lord right at 2,000. Are there other Races where you consider bringing a Lord at 2k to not be worth it?

Tony, is that a list you would run competitively? I'm not doubting you obviously I just am shocked that there's no war machines? Were the war machines in dwarfs 6.0 not that great?

My game against my buddy's 6.5 list is this Saturday and I'm feeling a lot more prepared for it after reading the stuff on here and on that other forum site.
 
Just Tony
My list is what I physically own currently. I had plenty of artillery in my last Dwarf army so I have experience with it, which is why I'm in no hurry to get anything right now.

But yes, it would consider this a very viable competitive list.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
TinyLegions
I have some thoughts on JT's army list. Not to knock the list, as that is the inventory of the army right now, but there is some things that I would change due to personal experience of what worked and what did not given my experience. Another caveat is that we are talking about a 2K army which means that points are a premium in my mind.

1: Cut the Miner and Ranger unit down and loose the FC. I can see champions and perhaps musicians, but definitely the Standards. Miners are great at coming out of nowhere and attacking on the flank, or war machine hunting. I think that taking 20 can be a bit much. I used to run 15 with FC and I think that I could do the job with 10 with maybe the champion, because the GW attacks on the target are more important than if they stay for multiple rounds. Similar with Rangers, but it depends on what their mission is. If you army is going on the offensive, then Rangers will be advance of your line and can get involved really quickly, which can be part of the plan, and thus may need a large block of dwarves. If they are there to annoy then you can penny packet them with a musician so that they can reform easily. I used 10 rangers to pull out fanatics for Night Goblins. They would hide out in woods and then come out to get the fanatics going while still in the woods. They were safe from the fanatics and march blocked half of his army. This part of the army worked well for me, even if they only just pulled the fanatics on the first turn and were killed after that. Both of these units are tricky to use and demand that you think multidimensional with your army.

2: For the Slayers, I would add at least one hero level character in the Slayers, and/or think of bringing more than one Giant Slayer, and loose the Standard Bearer. Slayers are great at dropping off slayer characters to CC, and they won't break so they don't really need the Standard. A large block can be good since they will probably drop like flies, unless you screen them with missile troops or are a follow on unit behind the main line.

3: Units that are only armed with HW, can and should number 25 or more when possible.(I know that inventory is what it is, and the number includes characters) GW units should number at most 20 and probably could live with less. It is the old anvil and hammer unit theory. GW units are great hammers, but expensive anvils, unless they have something special in their characters, which is the next point. HW units are great anvils and can escort a character to combat without any trouble. I usually fill up my HW units with Thanes, combat Runesmiths, BSB and Lords, never multiple characters in a unit to start.

4: If I am going to use a Lord, the I think very seriously in using a Master Rune of Swiftness. I want my Lord to hit first and make as much damage to help out the rest of the unit before your opponent makes any hits. This really screws any cavalry units that attacks your Lord unit, trust me. JT has a good loadout for his Lord, but I would add this rune to the mix personally, and either exchange the +1 WS with a Rune of Fury or Might. These Lords make GW units a lot more deadly. Likewise having a large block of resilient HW warriors can deliver your Lord to the enemy to do all of the damage for the unit.

5: Given the high leadership a BSB is a good choice for Dwarves. Their high leadership and well armored units means that they are likely loosing the combat by a few points. I have lost count of how many times I have lost a combat by a few points, and rolled bad. That reroll is worth every point when I started to use them, even if he is just running a blank standard.

Concernign Warmachines:

I tend to think that a Organ Gun as the American Express card for my Dwarf Army. "Don't leave home without it." This is basically a machine gun for your dwarves. Remember that if you roll a 2, you can re-roll the artillery dice and misfires don't cause the full misfire chart. Cannons are usually good, but with cavalry heavy armies, they tend to underperform unless you end up with a flank shot. Bolt Throwers are cheap and can work well if you know what to do with them. Stone Throwers are literally and figuratively hit or miss. Great with large block's but not so much for MSU armies. I did not do much with Flame Cannons or Gyrocopter, so I can't really comment on them.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
MattyFenby
To make sure I'm understanding this correctly:
The scouts can hang out in the trees, pop up to within 2" of the treeline so that they are within LOS and within 8" but since they are still IN the terrain feature the fanatics have no way of hitting them? That's a great little trick. How does a goblins player counter that? Spiders I guess if you allow them in 6th edition?

Also, are there other races where you recommend AGAINST bringing a lord at 2k-2500?

You guys are a wealth of information thank you a ton for being so helpful and knowledgable
 
TinyLegions
MattyFenby wrote:

To make sure I'm understanding this correctly:
The scouts can hang out in the trees, pop up to within 2" of the treeline so that they are within LOS and within 8" but since they are still IN the terrain feature the fanatics have no way of hitting them? That's a great little trick. How does a goblins player counter that? Spiders I guess if you allow them in 6th edition?

Also, are there other races where you recommend AGAINST bringing a lord at 2k-2500?

You guys are a wealth of information thank you a ton for being so helpful and knowledgable


Yes, you are understanding that correctly with the Rangers. As far as the counter goes, I drop my Rangers after my opponent deploys all of his army. You can do the same thing with Miners as well. I came up against a flank of Night Goblins and had my opponent scatter his fanatics because of that. Remember these are annoyance tactics for Rangers.

I was thinking of a response for Lord at 2K. I really only have experience as a Dwarf Player for the 6th, but from what I can see a Chaos Lord has a similar problem. You can get two Exalted Champions for cheaper than a Chaos Lord, and a Chaos Lord really does not add much to the rank and file of the Hordes of Chaos army, compared to two EC's in the ranks. Not sure about the loadout that an EC can do, so that may change things. Not sure about other armies, honestly, but I think that a general rule is that the more expensive your troops are in points, and the more expensive the lord is, the harder it is for a lord level character to be effective. There are some Lord builds that do function better than others so it is not a hard and fast rule. Read some of the Batreps that we have here from JT on his Beastmen, HE and DOW games to get a feel if they do what you would expect them to do.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
Just Tony
TinyLegions wrote:

I have some thoughts on JT's army list. Not to knock the list, as that is the inventory of the army right now, but there is some things that I would change due to personal experience of what worked and what did not given my experience. Another caveat is that we are talking about a 2K army which means that points are a premium in my mind.


To start, never apologize for critiquing. I know you wouldn't come out to garbage talk, and I more often than not defer to your or any other extremely seasoned Dwarf player when discussing tactics, but in this case us picking up models in this order was because a: we don't want a High Elves situation where we're sitting on 5,000 points that we will never ever field all of it, or in some cases specific units that never see the light of day, and b: we had planned out exactly what we thought would be efficient in a "take all comers" list that could be expanded on to get to 3,000 points. THAT was what we had in mind with what we have. It's also why we didn't rush out to spam Thunderers or Cannons despite those models being easy to get a hold of because of BfSP sets.

TinyLegions wrote:1: Cut the Miner and Ranger unit down and loose the FC. I can see champions and perhaps musicians, but definitely the Standards. Miners are great at coming out of nowhere and attacking on the flank, or war machine hunting. I think that taking 20 can be a bit much. I used to run 15 with FC and I think that I could do the job with 10 with maybe the champion, because the GW attacks on the target are more important than if they stay for multiple rounds. Similar with Rangers, but it depends on what their mission is. If you army is going on the offensive, then Rangers will be advance of your line and can get involved really quickly, which can be part of the plan, and thus may need a large block of dwarves. If they are there to annoy then you can penny packet them with a musician so that they can reform easily. I used 10 rangers to pull out fanatics for Night Goblins. They would hide out in woods and then come out to get the fanatics going while still in the woods. They were safe from the fanatics and march blocked half of his army. This part of the army worked well for me, even if they only just pulled the fanatics on the first turn and were killed after that. Both of these units are tricky to use and demand that you think multidimensional with your army.


Those units are that size and loadout specifically because of their flexibility. I'm not always going to scout with the Miners, I may need them in the main battle line depending on who's coming. I don't know until I get there. Miners will more than likely use their special move, I'd have to be in a hard pressed situation to move otherwise, but those situations could exist. Once they DO show up, I'll assume they'll need every point of Combat Res they can scrape up, so the banners, ranks, and numbers stay for that reason. Not to mention as slow as these guys are, they may draw a fairly disproportionate amount of fire on the turns I spend trying to maneuver them into position to affect the game.

And yes, Matt, that is exactly how they work. They also suffer no movement penalties in woods so they can march their full 6" to really guff someone over.

Once again, versatility and flexibility.

TinyLegions wrote:2: For the Slayers, I would add at least one hero level character in the Slayers, and/or think of bringing more than one Giant Slayer, and loose the Standard Bearer. Slayers are great at dropping off slayer characters to CC, and they won't break so they don't really need the Standard. A large block can be good since they will probably drop like flies, unless you screen them with missile troops or are a follow on unit behind the main line.


My mission with the Slayers isn't explicitly to die in droves, I'd like to think I may win a combat from time to time. Slayers are that tar pit that, unlike Swarms, can actually hold a chance of winning a match and pursue/overrun and help the battle line even further. I'm not sold on a Slayer character, they don't seem to offer much over what a simple upgraded Slayer could offer barring a ward.

TinyLegions wrote:3: Units that are only armed with HW, can and should number 25 or more when possible.(I know that inventory is what it is, and the number includes characters) GW units should number at most 20 and probably could live with less. It is the old anvil and hammer unit theory. GW units are great hammers, but expensive anvils, unless they have something special in their characters, which is the next point. HW units are great anvils and can escort a character to combat without any trouble. I usually fill up my HW units with Thanes, combat Runesmiths, BSB and Lords, never multiple characters in a unit to start.


I stop at 20 because I like the way they look, and because at that size the Elite units will draw more fire, leaving me to get my Sword and Board units in where they need to be. Worst case scenario? I lose a rank.

All other units are either at full to make them scarier and draw attention and/or to ensure that if I get charged, there's enough Res there that I won't flee right off the bat.

As a Dwarf, the one thing you WON'T be doing is outpositioning or outpacing your enemy. Plan for that. WANT to get charged, they think they're playing into THEIR hands but they are playing into YOURS.

TinyLegions wrote:4: If I am going to use a Lord, the I think very seriously in using a Master Rune of Swiftness. I want my Lord to hit first and make as much damage to help out the rest of the unit before your opponent makes any hits. This really screws any cavalry units that attacks your Lord unit, trust me. JT has a good loadout for his Lord, but I would add this rune to the mix personally, and either exchange the +1 WS with a Rune of Fury or Might. These Lords make GW units a lot more deadly. Likewise having a large block of resilient HW warriors can deliver your Lord to the enemy to do all of the damage for the unit.


I could have a different loadout, but my goal was an Attack Sponge. Keep as many hits absorbed in ridiculously good armor and Ward saves as possible. That, and knowing I'm only using the one character which will activate the Hammerers abilities lead me to this build. Could it get tweaked? Possibly, but it also comes out nice points wise so I don't have to eliminate something from a unit that I'd rather not.

TinyLegions wrote:5: Given the high leadership a BSB is a good choice for Dwarves. Their high leadership and well armored units means that they are likely loosing the combat by a few points. I have lost count of how many times I have lost a combat by a few points, and rolled bad. That reroll is worth every point when I started to use them, even if he is just running a blank standard.


A BSB is on my short list, honestly. You'll notice I don't have an army yet that does NOT have one. This being the exception solely because we were nabbing lots on the cheap, and I'll get to the BSB when I find a cheap enough base starting point.

TinyLegions wrote:Concernign Warmachines:

I tend to think that a Organ Gun as the American Express card for my Dwarf Army. "Don't leave home without it." This is basically a machine gun for your dwarves. Remember that if you roll a 2, you can re-roll the artillery dice and misfires don't cause the full misfire chart. Cannons are usually good, but with cavalry heavy armies, they tend to underperform unless you end up with a flank shot. Bolt Throwers are cheap and can work well if you know what to do with them. Stone Throwers are literally and figuratively hit or miss. Great with large block's but not so much for MSU armies. I did not do much with Flame Cannons or Gyrocopter, so I can't really comment on them.


Two Organ Guns are on our short list to buy, as well as a Flame Cannon. Cannons will only be bought if they are dirt cheap or given to us for free, and one Grudge Thrower may make it in just because. Ashley spreads some love around with experimenting, but I personally look for efficacy. It's also why I don't have a problem with samey units like some do.

I also go Core heavy with literally every army I build. I've NEVER been the type to nab the 3 tiny "Core Tax" units and blow my points on expensive Elites that only marginally do better than what Core units could have. It also affects what I'm willing to drop on the board, and why I didn't rush out for Specials and Rares for this army just yet.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
So glad I am reading this back-and-forth. I'm learning a lot and seeing where you guys overlap in agreement (things like BsB and Organ Guns and always bringing Miners/Scouts) is giving me a pretty solid idea of how I might want to run Dwarfs if I roll them as my Army in one of the upcoming matches.

This is the Dwarf army I am facing on Saturday:

HEROES (1-3):
Master Engineer. Dwarf Handgun, Rune of Reloading. 90 Pts.
Thane . Pistol. Master Rune of Gromril. Rune of Resistance. Oath Stone.150 Pts.
Runesmith . Rune of Challenge. Rune of Iron. 110 Pts.

CORE (2+):
Warriors x 10. 80 Pts.
Longbeards x 14. 154 Pts.
Thunderers x 10. Shields. Full Command. 175 Pts.

SPECIAL (0-3):
Bolt Thrower. Engineer. 60 Pts.
Bolt Thrower 45 Pts.
Miners x 10. Blasting Charges. Steam Drill. Full Command. 190 Pts.
Hammerers x 23. Magic Standard: Rune Standard of Courage (Unit is Immune to Fear and Terror). Full Command. 336 Pts.

RARE (0-1):
Organ Gun. 120 Pts

TOTAL: 1500 Pts


This is his first time playing as Dwarfs and my first time playing as Chaos so I know I will need to be capitalizing on any positioning mistakes he makes. I'm 90% sure he's embedding his Thane w/ Oath Stone in with the Hammerers, making them a HUGE points target, but I know he WANTS that unit to be charged so I am going to try and kill the war machines and less scary units first. Someone like the Thunderers is a good target to charge with 10 Knights and an Exalted Champion on a Daemonic Mount, right? Because I'll cause fear and outnumber and they could feed me a Banner and they actually can do damage from farther than 6" away?

Him only having a 6" charge range means I can do to his Hammerers what he did to Grimgors Boyz last game: keep them from ever seeing CC unless I feel I can win the CR handily. He will have no flanks or rear, he will be immune to fear, and with a standard I know for CR he's starting at 4 or 5 depending on the outnumber. I will try and avoid them until I can hit them with 3 units in the same charge phase. Or at least, that's the rough plan. By the bottom of the 2nd inning I might have had to completely rethink things
 
Just Tony
Those last two paragraphs warmed my heart. You definitely get it tactically. As soon as you see some massive point sink death star, either feed it something Unbreakable to keep if tied up all game or simply avoid it. Bonus points if you have something small and fast to sucker him into charging at and simply fleeing. If done right he'll spend the rest of the game repositioning while you digest the rest of his army with a distinct numerical advantage.

Back to your list, as a caveat for next time. I would have left the Cheese Hounds of Khorne at home and instead made 2 10 man Fury units. Both hop over terrain Turn 1 to threaten the Organ Gun. He can only target one, so as long as he doesn't force a Panic you are in position to charge him Turn 2. From there I would have thinned out the Herd to about 6 Gors total and whatever Ungors you want to fill in to taste. At that point, whatever points you saved into a couple blocks of Marauders, maybe another character.

Last but not least: I discovered another thing I detest about the 6.5 book. Engineers as unit upgrades for the war machines.
Edited by Just Tony on 17-12-2020 23:51
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
I would have loved to bring two Furies units but they are capped at 0-1 units in the Hordes of Chaos Book. I absolutely would have split them, and the best part would have been that he CANT start a panic because daemons are immune to psych! I can hear the Apocalypse Now music already if that had been an option. Instead I will be sending in a massive swarm of murder hornets to disrupt his backline.
 
Just Tony
Then it all comes to taste. Some units are better suited to jobs than others, but the units in 6th are at not so staggeringly different to negate a unit in its entirety. I personally hate MSU and don't like the look of those armies, but some people do and are still successful with said builds.

Experience will be your best advisor from here on out.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
MattyFenby
I don't mind MSU nor do I really even fear a Heavy Cavalry Death Star anymore. To go even further, I honestly dont even think Dwarfs 6.5 is this nightmare of imbalance to play against. Granted, the two of us are green as hell so he wasn't executing perfectly but I didnt feel like it was overwhelming to take a draw against them with a Chaos Army I've never used before.

I think most armies in this game have a decent amount of options to deal with theme-y or meme-y lists and every army except Bretonnia has access to pikemen which seem to be very good counters to a Heavy Cavalry Death Star.

MSU I think has its times and places. I fully agree that it's gonna take a lot more battles to keep getting the hang of it and I can't wait. We have one battle scheduled for every month in 2021 and we are getting better at getting all the rules right every time. Thank you guys a ton for posting all this stuff I'm learning a lot on here.
 
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