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Classic Hammer » Warhammer Fantasy » 6th Edition
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Dwarfs 2.0 book
Just Tony
So I was once again at work with much more free time on my hands than I'd like when I got to thinking about the game night I'm attempting to organize, our earlier thoughts on 0-1, and what is or isn't accepted as a whole in the vein of tourney play etc. and I got to thinking about the Dwarf 2.0 book and how much I am really not a fan of using it in 6th.

First off, they killed 0-1 in it which led to the more powerful units being spammed.

Then they jostled what counted as Core so you could make some rather appendix list feeling lists while staying true to the FOC.

Then they added a ton of FOC changing add-on rules to the characters which just added to the list warping.

And finally, they turned the Anvil of Doom into essentially a war machine fired by the Runepriest. Sure, the spells weren't game breaking any more than others in the lores, but at least you had a chance to stop it.

Overall the design mentality behind the book gives more of a 7th Ed. feel, and while it was released ahead of 7th, it was certainly designed to be ran in 7th. I'm almost inclined to rule it out of the game night. What do you think? Would that be excessive, or do you think it feels right?
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
And finally, they turned the Anvil of Doom into essentially a war machine fired by the Runepriest. Sure, the spells weren't game breaking any more than others in the lores, but at least you had a chance to stop it.

I don't remember much else about the book you're talking about, but I do remember this, and the reason for the change.
As much as I liked the Anvil of Doom as a spell-casting device, it had the serious problem that it was the only dwarf spell-caster- so when it came to the magic phase you could guarantee the opponent would throw every dice they could at dispelling the Anvil, simply because there was nothing better to do with those dice! As a result, the Anvil never did anything- minor or otherwise.
The problem became especially pronounced in larger games, as you could only have 1 Anvil.
Personally, I'd like to have seen some kind of way Dwarfs could boost the power, or cap enemy dispel dice, but it's hard to make such a mechanism that's not convoluted and/or pretty arbitrary in its effects.
Just Tony
Lets get down to it: if you didn't run four mages, you were going to be run roughshod over by the four mage armies. The difference would be if they said something like "Chaos Sorcerers' spells can never be dispelled by an opponent." It's the same principle, and I hold principle over everything else when it comes to game balance. I also look at if there is anything comparable in other lists. A great example of that, while crossing systems, is the 3rd Edition Blood Angels codex. EVERYTHING they got was a perk, including their drawback. When you can build your list to the point that the drawback of your army actually furthers your list, there's a problem. In my mind, the Dwarfs 2.0 book did exactly that.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
That's a fair point, and as I've said I don't remember enough about the rest of the book to be able to comment much (I'll try to re-read it soon though).

That doesn't take away from the fact that the original 6th ed Anvil was bad to the point of uselessness- that's no way any option in a book should be (otherwise it's not actually an option!). If you really like the Anvil (for story or looks, as my old Dwarf opponent did) then it's quite depressing to know that it may as well not exist in-game.

Dwarfs should never have a strong magic phase, but I don't think the later 6th ed Anvil did that anyway. As you say- it was basically a war machine fired by the Runesmith, and war machines are nothing new to Dwarfs (so it really doesn't add much).

On a side note, what is it with Blood Angels and 'penalty' perks? (grumble on Epic list...)
I played both of those army books as Dwarves were my primary army during the 6th and 7th. Honestly, I could live without the new rules from the 2.0, but I never used much of the new rules in my gaming in either edition. I never took a Runelord let alone the anvil, rarely if ever took an oathstone, and I only had one unit of Longbeards and Hammerers. The only thing that I used from that book that was new was one new rune Master Rune of Kragg the Grim, which was actually pretty good. But even that was something that I could live without.

The only thing that I would fix for the old book would be to add the above rune, along with a few others from the 4th edition updated of course, and call it a day. The oathstone is an interesting concept, but I would rather have better elite infantry rules like what we saw from WAB than an oathstone. The anvil is a cool model,(the old 4th edition anvil is cooler however) but I have a take it or leave it approach to the anvil anyways given the dice based magic that 6th employeed.
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Just Tony
And honestly the only thing that sucks about the Anvil being a spellcaster is the fact that there was nothing limiting people from maxing out on mages. And when faced with that sort of opposition, the sole caster in your army is simply outclassed. What they SHOULD have done was given Runesmiths a list of bound spells to choose from, say they are bonded to hammers or something equally Dwarfy. OR, an idea that I thought was perfect when my brother and I agreed to it: No army shall have more magic using characters than non-magic using characters.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
I think adding the 7th ed magic rules to 6th ed mostly fixes the mage-spam issue, but dispel dice are still pooled, which means the casting-anvil is still pretty much useless. Even a wizard-light army can usually muster enough dispel dice to easily deal with an Anvil.

It would be greatly helped if the Dwarf wasn't limited to a maximum of 4 dice per casting, and if he had reliably more magic dice- such as 2D3+2. Alternatively, lower the casting values by 1 each. Being able to either funnel all dice into one important spell, or to cast multiple spells in a turn, would make it more of a struggle for the opponent.

I remember from my own games that I never knew what my opponent would bring- so I tended to have 2 scrolls plus at least 2 wizards. It wasn't too uncommon that my opponent would be left in the awkward position of having something like 5 or 6 dice. He could cast one spell very well (which would be instantly scrolled if I cared enough about it) and be left with too few dice to do much else, or he could split his dice more evenly- and have a decent chance of failing to cast!

I agree that percentages are bad, though I'd still house rule that at least 25% of points should be from core units- I remember too many people who used to simply take 3x10 goblins (or similar) just to fill those slots.

One of my most hated things with 8th ed percentages relates to your mage cap- I really disliked that 8th had 25% Lords and 25% Heroes. I would have been much happier with '50% characters, up to 50% of characters may be Lords'. My reason is that my Wood Elf army ran with a theme involving 1 combat hero and 2 level 2 mages- far from overpowered, but disallowed by percentages. For this same reason I'm not a fan of your mage-cap, though at least adding another bare-bones combat hero is easy.
Just Tony
The only reason I suggest that cap is because of the High Elves Seer Council that we'd see pop up from people who didn't have the mind for tactics. While I never thought ANY of the magic in 6th was game ending, I would just get annoyed at a rolled magic phase like that. Like the infamous 19 PD Tzeentch army. Ran it once, realized how ginchy it was and retired it. I just don't like to be hamstrung into thinking I need 3 out of 4 character slots tied up by mages just so I have enough scrolls to keep some spammer at bay. Granted, I could always just mass fire in the shooting phase and cause a panic (hopefully), but it just bothers me that some don't practice restraint unless someone forces them to.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
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