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High Elves 2000 points
elendor
Hi!
There may be a tournament for 6th edition in Barcelona on 1st April (I know the organizer but the shop where it will take place still has to announce it officially), so I have been preparing an army list for High Elves (and I am trying to paint as fast as possible Shock ).

The tournament is a bit special since it allows 6th edition extended, and by that I mean that a group of players from Barcelona (who also write one of the well known miniatures blogs in Spain) is compiling every army book for 6th edition, adding every alternative army list and adding the new units that have appeared in 7th and 8th but adapted to the rules of 6th (in many cases they have also adapted units from 3rd and 4th editions that disappeared).
That means that for example I could play with Lion Chariots and Phoenixes!
However I don't own any new models since I stopped playing at the start of 7th edition, so I will make a classical 6th edition army.

The idea of the tournament is to try the new rules and have fun, so the lists won't bring the extra cheese (no lists with 16 power dice, no hard gunlines, probably no great daemons) but they won't be soft lists (I know a Lizardmen player is bringing an Oldblood with a Carnosaur).
I guess I can expect a hard but fair approach for the lists.

Anyway here is my list!

Archmage, level 4, Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll, Seer, 355 points
Elven Noble, dragon armour, elven steed with ithilmar barding, great weapon, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix, 147 points
(with the Dragon Princes)

20 Spearelves, full command, Lion Standard, 275 points
10 Archers, 120 points
5 Silver Helms, lance, heavy armour, shield, barded steed, 115 points
5 Silver Helms, lance, heavy armour, shield, barded steed, 115 points

11 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Blessed Tome, 180 points
5 Dragon Princes, full command, Banner of Arcane Protection, 215 points
5 Ellyrion Reavers, 90 points
1 Tiranoc Chariot, 85 points

2 Bolt Throwers, 200 points
2 Great Eagles, 100 points

Total: 1997
Models in the army: 68
Deployment drops: 11

The list has four main groups: heavy cavalry (Dragon Princes and Helms), infantry (Spears and Swords), shooting (BT, Archers) and mobile support (Ellyrion, Eagles, Chariot).
The general strategy is to use my mobile cavalry to gain flank superiority, then surround the enemy army and finally crush them with combined charges.
In order to achieve this I need my mobile support and/or shooting to clear the mobile light enemy units (scouts, flyers for example) so our heavy cavalry can move freely.

The infantry centre is probably the part of the army to be handled with the most care, so I included the Blessed Tome to increase Leadership (the Archmage is Ld9 but I think it helps to have an extra +1 in many situations, and if the Noble is the General he may be far from the infantry) and the Spears are Inmune to Fear and Terror to avoid untimely autobreaks or failed tests.
The centre can't hold against a very strong enemy centre (think Chosen Knights or Bretonnia), but Eagles are there to be used as diverters while the cavalry tries to win a flank and turn back to help the centre.
However if the Spears can hold, both the Swordmasters and the Chariot pack a real punch so the enemy would be in trouble.
The Swordmasters are quite fragile though, so I need to make sure they don't get charged. I am not too worried about the enemy shooting them since they are not a key piece for the strategy.

For the magic phase I only included an Archmage so I won't be dominating (I would need an extra level 2 Mage for that) but he has 7 Power Dice per turn and a bounded level 4 spell so he can do a decent job probably starting from turn 3 (assuming the enemy has scroll caddies).
The Vaul's Unmaking as a bound spell is really powerful since with level 4 the enemy has to use 2 dice to make sure it is dispelled, and it frees my Archmage from investing 4 dice to cast a 12+ difficulty spell.
I decided to include the Banner of Arcane Protection (MR(2)) in the Dragon Princes to help with magic defense, since I have only 4 dispel dice and one scroll.
Against magic heavy armies I will choose High Magic and annoy the enemy with Drain Magic and Fortune is Fickle.
Against low or medium magic I can also consider Life, Metal or Heavens (Life and Metal are really strong against shooty armies).

I am considering an alternative build for the Archmage which is 2 Dispel Scrolls, Silver Wand and Ring of Fury, this is 80 points in total, and to compensate the loss of the Jewel of Dusk I would include the Banner of Sorcery.
I don't get Vaul's Unmaking as a bounded spell and extra dispel dice for the Dragon Princes, but I get an extra Scroll and a bounded 2D6 S4 spell, and although I can't choose my spells due to no Seer, with Silver Wand the Archmage gets 5 out of 6 spells so it is pretty decent.

It became a long post quickly so congrats if you have read so far!
What do you guys think of the army?

Thanks!
Edited by elendor on 06-03-2017 06:36
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
Just Tony
As far as lists go, it's decent, and definitely has a flavor to it. That being said, you did as for opinions on the list. My opinion is that you need to bulk up those Swordmasters to 20, that and maybe a second Spear regiment at 20.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
elendor
I could make a big Swordmasters unit but then I would probably choose to give up the Dragon Princes and go for also one extra Archers units and perhaps a Mage. The 20 Swordmasters need support or they are going to get blown up and they are rather expensive, so my idea is to use a small unit for support.

Also I feel awkward with big Swordmasters units because you pay a lot per rank bonus and they don't get to attack, and as a unit for holding charges Spears do the job better (unless you go for a Prince with Lion Guard and make them Stubborn). A big unit of Swordmasters can mince almost any infantry to pieces but I think forcing the enemy to let me do it is pretty difficult.
I am toying with the idea of giving the small unit extra mobility by exchanging the Blessed Tome for the Banner of Ellyrion so they can ignore difficult terrain, but probably the extra Leadership point is worth more.

An extra unit of Spears would be a godsend though, just with 16 Spears I'd be happy, and at 2250 points it would be my first choice for expanding the list. But points don't allow it right now unless I would give up one Helms unit and I think I need them more!

Thanks for the reply!
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
Just Tony
The thing about WFB, especially 6th, is that you DO wind up paying points for models that will never attack once. What you are paying for is the rank bonus, and if you look at the Swordmasters you have, you have a standing CR of 2 going in, which means that in order for that unit to beat ANYTHING it needs to not take 2 or more wounds. You already spoke of how fragile they are, so take that into consideration. Having a standing CR of 4 (+3 for ranks, and banner) maybe 4 (Outnumber), and it becomes much harder for a unit to sway the combat in the end. At that rate, especially if you have a BSB with the Battle Banner (+D6 to CR), you could even hold from a charge with that unit. Yes, even from cav. Just keep the Bladelord to act as a challenge sponge so your BSB sticks around.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
elendor
What I meant is that for Swordmasters what you pay for the rank bonus feel like a waste considering how good their stats are and how fast they die to template weapons.
I agree with your analysis in 1v1 situations, where units fight each other in the front. We both know and agree that 10-12 Swordmasters can't 1v1 big blocks of infantry, if I am ever forced to do that I have probably already lost the battle or I am in a disadvantage.

Small units of 10-12 Swordmasters or White Lions are there to support other units with high Strength attacks, and they rely on combined charges together with the Spears or with a Chariot. The least they can do is threat the combined charge, the enemy needs to be careful about it.
If I position them wrong or I miscalculate yeah I am boned since they won't stand most charges, but that is my fault for putting them in a bad place.
In any case they are relatively cheap (for Elves) at 180 points, so if the enemy shoots them or even if I lose the whole unit I don't lose many points (and the enemy is not shooting my mobile support units or my cavalry).
Their function is to support the Spears, not to be a combat threat on their own.

If I choose to include a big block of Swordmasters (with or without BSB ), I would need to redesign a big part of the army to make them work, because 20 SM with full command and no magical toys is already 290 points, plus magic banner or BSB it quickly approaches 400-500 points, and that is a huge investment that I need to make worth.
So I could include a big block of SM but then I would need to play around them so I'd need to redesign the list, since right now the focus is on cavalry and Spears.

I think with a strong Magic phase the 20 SM could work, for example I think the Lore of Shadow is good for this purpose because it allows you to protect them from shooting with Midnight Skin (the spell that makes the enemy to hit shooting on 6s against that unit and makes stone throwers deviate the projectiles automatically) and to charge in the magic phase with Unseen Lurker.
Probably 2 units of Archers, 1 of Spears, small units of Silver Helms to support, Eagles, RBTs and Shadow Warriors it could work, I 'd need to think about the characters.
My main concern is how to force the enemy to fight with the 20 Swordmasters, because they probably won't be willing to! Grin
With the points cost of everything my guess is that the army would work better at 2500 than at 2000 points, but I am writing from the top of my head ^^

Btw now that I think about it, the BSB on foot with the Battle Banner probably dies to regular troops, he is T3 W2 with 5+ armor save and no ward saves Shock
Edited by elendor on 06-03-2017 11:43
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
Just Tony
elendor wrote:What I meant is that for Swordmasters what you pay for the rank bonus feel like a waste considering how good their stats are and how fast they die to template weapons.
I agree with your analysis in 1v1 situations, where units fight each other in the front. We both know and agree that 10-12 Swordmasters can't 1v1 big blocks of infantry, if I am ever forced to do that I have probably already lost the battle or I am in a disadvantage.


When it comes down to it, isn't EVERY foot infantry unit vulnerable to template weapons? At that point, you prioritize shooting towards those units that use templates, and maybe some magic as well.

elendor wrote:Small units of 10-12 Swordmasters or White Lions are there to support other units with high Strength attacks, and they rely on combined charges together with the Spears or with a Chariot. The least they can do is threat the combined charge, the enemy needs to be careful about it.
If I position them wrong or I miscalculate yeah I am boned since they won't stand most charges, but that is my fault for putting them in a bad place.
In any case they are relatively cheap (for Elves) at 180 points, so if the enemy shoots them or even if I lose the whole unit I don't lose many points (and the enemy is not shooting my mobile support units or my cavalry).
Their function is to support the Spears, not to be a combat threat on their own.


My issue is that there are enough OTHER types of flankers to do that job, faster units with a smaller minimum size. You have a bunch in your list already. The issue I have is that you only have one anvil unit in any way, shape, or form. Even if you were to make it another Spearmen unit or Lothern Sea Guard, it'd be something. As it stands, you have one unit with which to base an entire line worth of flanking around, and any army that has even a modest number of 20 man blocks will give you a run for your money. IMO, that is.

elendor wrote:If I choose to include a big block of Swordmasters (with or without BSB ), I would need to redesign a big part of the army to make them work, because 20 SM with full command and no magical toys is already 290 points, plus magic banner or BSB it quickly approaches 400-500 points, and that is a huge investment that I need to make worth.
So I could include a big block of SM but then I would need to play around them so I'd need to redesign the list, since right now the focus is on cavalry and Spears.


If you surf the site enough. you should find TONS about my opinion of 5 man cav units and how effective I think they are. Apply that to what I said earlier about modest number of ranked unts, and you'll see why I question. I know at the end it's about individual playstyle, but I am still gonna throw my opinion in as far as thinking the main line is a touch weak as it stands.

elendor wrote:I think with a strong Magic phase the 20 SM could work, for example I think the Lore of Shadow is good for this purpose because it allows you to protect them from shooting with Midnight Skin (the spell that makes the enemy to hit shooting on 6s against that unit and makes stone throwers deviate the projectiles automatically) and to charge in the magic phase with Unseen Lurker.
Probably 2 units of Archers, 1 of Spears, small units of Silver Helms to support, Eagles, RBTs and Shadow Warriors it could work, I 'd need to think about the characters.
My main concern is how to force the enemy to fight with the 20 Swordmasters, because they probably won't be willing to! Grin
With the points cost of everything my guess is that the army would work better at 2500 than at 2000 points, but I am writing from the top of my head ^^


You have more than enough time to crunch numbers on this list. Try meeting up with someone and run possible scenarios with that list and see how resilient/flexible it is. I'm gonna say right now that Orcs will probably give you a REALLY rough go. If their morale holds up.

elendor wrote:Btw now that I think about it, the BSB on foot with the Battle Banner probably dies to regular troops, he is T3 W2 with 5+ armor save and no ward saves Shock


Double check the battle reports subforum. My BSB with that EXACT set up survives a bit more than you'd think.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
Just Tony
It was also not my intention to come off as condescending or derisive, I'm just offering up other points. Though, if you ARE going to keep the 11 man SM unit, I'd definitely suggest more spears. Also, the upgrade for your mage where you get to choose your spells.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
elendor
The Archmage already has Seer, which is the upgrade you mention.

No problem about the tone, it is good to have honest opinions, regardless of whether we agree or disagree.

I actually have a different list based on Chrace were I run a Lion Guard/Vambraces Prince on foot with 20 Spearmen (Inmune to Panic due to Pure of Heart, Fear and Terror due to Standard and Stubborn due to the Prince), 15 White Lions with BSB and the rest is support (Archers, Helms, Eagles, RBTs, Shadow Warriors, Ellyrion and 2 level 2 Mages iirc).
I made that list thinking on focusing on infantry, and yet 15 Lions seem a bit few to me, but 20 are quite expensive (the difference is only +1 to CR though).

However since I can't playtest my lists as where I live I haven't found people to play 6ed (yet!), I will probably try my luck with the current form, analyze the results and decide on the change, I am interested about a second block of Spears in particular.

What you mention about having a single anvil unit, they are just an average anvil at the moment without a Lion Guard character to make them Stubborn. You call the rest of the army flankers, but the point is not only flanking but force concentration. A combined Dragon Princes+Silver Helms charge can break in one round an enemy unit (not the strongest one, but our cavalry has mobility to pick their fights) and then come from the rear to support my infantry. If needed, the unit to break can be softened with shooting/magic.
I will report on the results and on the performance of the 11 SM.

I will also check around the battle reports in the forum later!
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
Just Tony
Unless you set up a flank charge, the most cav models you get in base contact are 6 on average, unless it's a 25 mil infantry base, then you can get 7. To be extremely generous, we'll say two champions make it into base, since your illustration is a side by side charge. So 9 attacks, with 4-6 hitting on average and 3-5 wounds on average. If there's ANY save, take that into consideration. 7 horse attacks with 3.5 hitting and 1.75 wounding, with full saves. Given how likely/unlikely you are to get that many in base for attacking in the first place, and the fact that you wouldn't have outnumber or any ranks to your bonus, and can only claim one banner, you'd have to hit or wound above average to guarantee there are no attacks back. And if the enemy runs spears? Hooo, yeah, you aren't breaking that unit on the charge. Cav units are hard hitting to a point, but 6th is all about combat resolution, and strolling in without ranks or outnumber means you're behind the 8 ball. I run my knight units at 8-10 man so that I know I have at least +3 CR coming in, makes the hit more likely to break the unit.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
elendor
Combined cavalry charge = front+flank charge, otherwise it makes no sense. Btw the Dragon Princes have 3 extra Attack of S6 due to the Noble.
But any combined charge in the front I would attempt only together with a Chariot because of the issues you mention, and that would be risky still.

In my opinion since we don't have access to multiple Attacks cavalry such as Chosen or Grail Knights, we need to flank to deny rank bonuses, otherwise as you mention we can't reliably break a unit.
So my bad for not being clear, but when I mention force concentration it involves flanking (unless the unit is weakened a lot by shooting and magic).
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
Just Tony
Of course, but more often than not you get people on line with the fallacy that a 5 man cav unit breaks everything on the front charge. I have never had that happen, not even with Chosen Chaos Knights.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
elendor
The tournament is this Saturday! I'll try to make nice pictures and battle reports Grin
It will also serve me to reflect on my army list!

The armies participating are:
Dark Elves (not sure if regular or Cult of Slaanesh)
Chaos Dwarves (HATS)
Ogre Kingdoms
Lizardmen
High Elves (me)
Skaven
Empire
Tomb Kings
High Elves Sea Patrol
Vampire Counts
Lizardmen Southlands
Beastmen
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
TinyLegions
Please do. We would like to see your Battle Report, as well as anyone else at the tournament who wants to sign up if they are not already on here.
Your Benevolent dictator

My Miniatures Blog http://www.tinyle...gspot.com/
 
Just Tony
elendor wrote:

The tournament is this Saturday! I'll try to make nice pictures and battle reports Grin
It will also serve me to reflect on my army list!

The armies participating are:
Dark Elves (not sure if regular or Cult of Slaanesh)
Chaos Dwarves (HATS)
Ogre Kingdoms
Lizardmen
High Elves (me)
Skaven
Empire
Tomb Kings
High Elves Sea Patrol
Vampire Counts
Lizardmen Southlands
Beastmen


Now THAT is a nice spread. Leaves, what, 4 races out? And nobody ran Chaos Warriors. My heart is happy...





And I must agree with our benevolent dictator: many, many MANY pictures, and invite as many of those people here as will join.
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
elendor
Hi!

I will make a more detailed post later on but the tournament was a lot of fun!
Personal goal for the next one, play faster my own turns! I was pretty slow so all my battles ended before the 6 turns were done!
It happened to a couple more players, I blame not playing 6ed regularly Smile
(bit of an excuse here, they were my first 3 battles in 10 years!)

I drew Skavens, Ogre Kingdoms and Beastmen, decisive defeat against the rats (I made quite some mistakes here), draw against Ogres and Beastmen but we had to end before the crucial turns.
Ogres was going slightly in my favor, Beastment was pretty close but I think it favoured him a bit.

Next post pictures and reports ^^
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
Just Tony
You could also post individual battle reports, as we have a section just for that Wink
Father, soldier, musician, Transformers fan, masochistic junior moderator type thing.
 
elendor
After the tournament games I have modified my list slightly for the next time:

Archmage, level 4, Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll, Seer
Noble on elven steed, ithilmar barding, great weapon, Armour of Protection
Noble on foot, Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield
19 Spearelves, full command, War Banner
10 Archers
5 Silver Helms
5 Silver Helms
5 Dragon Princes, full command, Banner of Ellyrion
5 Ellyrion Reavers
15 Swordmasters, Standard Bearer, Lion Standard, Bladelord, Amulet of the Purifying Flame
2 RBTs
1 Eagle

I changed some magical objects:
- Removed the Blessed Tome since the LD bonus aura is short (6 inches)
- Removed the Banner of Arcane Protection from the Dragon Princes in exchange for the Banner of Ellyrion (the DPs were usually far from enemy magic and the Ellyrion banner allows them to ignore difficult terrain, increasing their maneuverability).
- Amulet of the Purifying Flame to the Swordmasters for cheap magic defense as they are more likely to be the target of magic.
- Lion Standard to SM instead of Spearelves since SM are more vulnerable to be outnumbered by a Fear-causing unit.
- War Banner to the Spears to stack more static combat resolution.

With the points from changing the magical objects and removing one Chariot I included a new Noble on foot to command either the Spears or the Swordmasters and provide some extra combat power and Leadership to my infantry.
The combination of Enchanted Shield + Helm of Fortune gives him a 2+ armor save re-rollable which is pretty nice for an elf on foot (It took me a while to realize that the Enchanted Shield is the only magic armor item that is allowed to be combined with another magic armor item).

The mounted Noble can't have the Helm+Phoenix defensive build anymore so I decided to give him the Armour of Protection to get the 4+ Ward Save, the other option is the Radiant Gem of Hoeth which would improve my magic phase but leave him with less defense.

The final change is removing one Eagle for an extra rank of Swordmasters, I am not too sure about this change because 2 Eagles are really useful.
The other option is running 12 SM (6x2) which allows for the extra Eagle.

The list will function more or less the same but I gave a bit more power to the centre with the Noble and the extra Swordmasters and I allocated the magical objects to play better to the strengths of each unit (or so I believe!).

Cheers!
Edited by elendor on 17-04-2017 12:34
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
Geep
I agree a second Eagle would be good, but I wouldn't sacrifice any of your troops for it. In my view you're probably too magic item heavy- with the War Banner, Banner of Ellyrion, Lion Standard and Amulet of the Purifying Flame you have 75 points spent in a fairly inefficient way (IMO). That's before you consider if those characters need to be decked out as they are.

My usual approach is to take the units I want, then fill up the points gap with magic items. I find it generally leads to better armies. If you're limited in available models then I can understand- but you clearly have a second Eagle flapping about somewhere.
 
elendor
I agree that I have gone a bit trigger-happy with pumping out magical items, some of them are a bit of a luxury (for instance the Amulet).
I don't think they are that inefficient (they all play to the strength of the unit the are in, I think) but if I had to keep only one I would keep the Lion Standard because Fear is pretty strong when able to cause an autobreak and the Swordmasters are a 15 model unit.
I would like to keep the Ellyrion Banner as well because I think it improves the mobility of the Dragon Princes a lot, but it is not strictly necessary.
So removing War Banner, Ellyrion Banner and Amulet is exactly the 50 points for the Eagle, nice Smile

For the characters I do think the Archmage needs those items (or a variation like 2 Dispel Scrolls, Seer, Ring of Fury) to get a decent magic phase.
He is worth exactly the same points as 2 Mages level 2, I could even save 35p by making him level 3 but I think it isnt worth losing the extra spell and power dice.

For the Nobles I am actually considering whether they need the Ward saves, they are nice because it is more difficult for the enemy to claim points for your General or Pure of Heart character, but they don't strictly need them.
A more utility oriented build for the Nobles would be Radiant Gem for the mounted one and Helm of Fortune + Blessed Tome for the one on foot (he can have a 2+ AS re-rollable if he chooses hand weapon and shield, so he can survive challenges and prevent killy enemy characters from slaughtering the infantry). Having Leadership 10 is actually quite strong if he gets to be the general (damn Intrigue at Court).
"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
 
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