Expanding the 6th Edition: Vietnam

[mattyfenby]

Now that I have completed the game-relevant sections of the Chaos Dwarfs Army Book my club will use, I have set my sights on more "DLC" from the Warhammer Universe set in the 6th Edition.

Chaos Dwarfs - RULES/COSTS/ITEMS DONE
Au Lac (Vietnam) - IN PROGRESS
Cathay (China)
Nippon (Japan)
Araby (Persia/Ottoman Empire/Arabia etc)
Ind (India)
Albion (Ireland/Scotland)
Southlands (Subsaharan Africa)
Amazon Women of Lustria
Snakemen of Khuresh

WHY VIETNAM?
This is a fair question, because this is the one faction that is not ever mentioned in the lore and never had any models created for it. Not only do I have a personal interest for this project (my wife is from Vietnam and I have visited Vietnam a few times now and loved it and would love to see the faction on the table) but also... Vietnam's history and mythology is just insanely Warhammer-y.

The Creation Myth of Vietnam:https://www.vietnam.com/en/culture/art/ ... etnam.html. The wife here sounds like a Wood Elf Princess while the husband sounds like he's either able to shapeshift into an asian wingless dragon or possibly from under the sea or both?

The Magic Crossbow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_D%C6%B ... B0%C6%A1nghttps://www.vietnam.com/en/culture/art/ ... -chau.html This sounds like something RIGHT out of the warhammer universe. The 'spiral-shaped citadel' they are describing the ancient king constructing here is what eventually becomes Hanoi, which is the capital of Vietnam today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%E1%BB%95_Loa_CitadelI'm imagining this giant golden turtle to have looked something like those giant turles depicted in Avatar the Last Airbender https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Lion_turtle.

Vietnam's History of Resisting Invaders: Vietnam has struggled for many centuries for its sovereignty, resisting China, Mongolia, its neighbors in the region, Japan, France, the US, and more. The Trung Sisters just feel like they are directly out of a Warhammer book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C6%B0ng_sisters

Vietnam's adoption of many different religions also lends well to the Warhammer-y-ness of it all. There are Mahayana Buddhists, Catholics, Hindus, Baha'i, Muslims, practitioners of Cao Dai which is a religion that mixes a bunch of the religions, and if you'll believe it, even Mormons.


SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE SO FAR?

Ok, here's what I have managed to come up with so far:

Current Bestiary is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M9VUSW ... sp=sharing

Outline of the Roster Below:

ROSTER OVERVIEW
AU LAC (VIETNAM) IDEAS:
Legendary Lords:

Kinh An Dương
Lady Trieu
The Trung Sisters

Legendary Weapon:

"Saintly Crossbow of the Supernaturally Luminous Golden Claw" (靈光金爪神弩; SV: Linh Quang Kim Trảo Thần Nỏ) It is a Repeater Bolt Thrower that fires 2D6 shots per turn.

UNIQUE TECH:

The villager and farmer units in this army are Stubborn. There are Stubborn Farmers with Livestock Herds, which function just like Skaven Rat Packs.

Lords:
Vua (King - Lord Character) Can take a Forest Dragon or ride on the back of a War Elephant
Abbot (Level 3-4 Spell caster Character) Can take a Giant Peacock/Crane (Great Eagle) as Monstrous Mount or ride in the War Elephant

Heroes:
Hoàng tử (Prince - Hero Character)
Monk (Lvl 1-2 Spellcaster)

Core:
Stubborn Villagers (Like Empire Free Company except LD5 and Stubborn)
Stubborn LD 5 Farmers with Livestock Herds (Skaven Rat Packs but w pigs, goats, cows, roosters, geese, rats)
Conscripted Horsemen (Fast Cavalry – Already Exists in Dogs Book)
Conscripted Archers (Bows, Skirms – Already Exists in Empire Book)

Special:
Crossbowmen (Crossbows – Already Exists in Empire Book)
Footmen (State Troops, Sword & Board OR Halberd)
Tunnellers (0-1, like Dwarf Miners)
Scorpion Thrower [Bolt Thrower] (1-2 in One Special Slot)
Cấm Binh (0-1, General’s Bodyguard – All models count as having Handguns, Spears, and Shields. Stubborn if with the General)

Rare:
War Elephant (like Lizardmen Stegadon w/ Vietnamese Crew)
Hotpot Launcher (Already Exists in Dogs Army List)
Oxen-Drawn Chariot




WHY DID YOU POST THIS?

I would love to hear you guys' thoughts on this army. I've struggled with what to include and what to cut. I want to make sure I am honoring the history and the culture without putting blinders on and making it crazy OP and without turning it into some kind of racist caricature. I feel like I need to cut something but I'm not sure what. Do the bones of this look OK? Am I on the right track to creating an Army that could be fun to play with and against?

Reasoning for Cam Binh unit is here: https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-Imp ... nasty-like
Reasoning for including the Oxen-Drawn Chariot is a little weak, I found a model for it here that seems to be the right scale and figured 'thats a unit!': https://www.empressminiatures.com/vietn ... -107-c.asp
Reasoning for the Hotpot Launcher is also weak: Hotpot is commonly enjoyed in Vietnamese culture, and the model for the Hotpot launcher already exists for Dogs of War, and could be manned by 3 Vietnamese Villager models.

[Just Tony]

Unlike most fan lists/books this looks very reasonable. Points is where you'd see issues if anything. The best bet is find whatever faction matches as far as equipment and the like and fudge the lines from there.



Also, as this is Fantasy, maybe look at some of the mythological creatures that you might be able to slap in.

[Alarantalara]

It looks like it would be interesting to play against. It's probably the most non-elite core I've ever seen. Any chance of some of the regular infantry moving to core with a martial Lord choice? I wouldn't cut anything though: it's about the same number of options as the Ogre Kingdoms book when it came out and I think reducing it more would probably keep you from expressing variety in creating alternate lists.

If anything, I think you'd want to add one more hero choice to help express how this army is different. Think the Dark Elf beastmaster, the Wood Elf Branchwraith, the Empire Warrior Priest, the Ogre Hunter, the Lizardman Skink Chief, the Dwarf Engineer, you get the idea. Basically every army but High Elves has one, though the Bretonnian's mandatory standard bearer is pushing the definition a bit.

I think I'd want a more appropriate dragon. I don't recall Asian dragons breathing poison or anything else as an attack. What if you gave it Forked Lightning from the Lore of Heavens as a bound spell instead? It could even use it twice per turn like a Treeman. You could even continue the theme and give it The Rain Lord from the Lore of Life as an upgrade (presumably limiting it to two castings per turn, just a choice of spells).

[Kakapo42]

I'm a little confused about how any of these things are supposed to work, since the bestiary seems to just be a bunch of numbers at the moment, but if you're asking about things to cut from the unit list I have thoughts.

The first thing I would cut is actually the War Elephants, since weaponised elephants in Warhammer are already a special Araby thing alongside the flying carpets.

Next I would also dispense with the hot pot, partially because you're already unsure about it, but mostly because again hot pots are specifically a halfling thing. They're a special kind of warfare employed by halflings when threatened by something serious, and are already freely available as a Mercenary unit to boot.

The Ox chariot on the other hand sounds like a very neat idea and is something I'd keep.

I would also get rid of the Dragon as a character mount. Eastern Dragons do not let people ride on them like their western cousins in the Old World, as they are too proud for it and consider being someone's mount to be demeaning. On the other hand they do fight alongside armies of men from time to time when it suits their interests, so an unridden Dragon would make a nice big scary Rare unit monster instead of the elephants.

Either way they will by necessity have different abilities from the Wood Elf Forest Dragons, as those are a specific breed of dragon entirely unique to Athel Loren and found nowhere else.

I would also think about shifting the Cấm Binh to a Rare unit as well, which fills out the Rare section and makes the Special section less crowded. Possibly even swap the Ox Cart to Special and the Tunnellers to Rare too if we're getting really crazy.

Consider also making the Villagers skirmishers as well, to reinforce the light guerilla resistance fantasy.

That is in general the guiding star you should be aiming at, fantasy. The Warhammer world is completely divorced from our one, it has much more in common with Discworld than it does real life history. Like Discworld, the Warhammer world is a world of fantasy and fantasy archetypes. Take Bretonnia for instance - Bretonnia has nothing at all to do with France and everything to do with chivalric romance, with any French sounding elements being entirely coincidental to the decisive matter of being Chivalric Romance Land. Likewise Araby has far more to do with popular depictions of Arabian Nights-esque mythos than any actual real-life Islamic caliphate, which is why they have lots of war elephants and flying carpets but no cannons or bombards.

So if you are creating a new civilisation out of whole cloth, you should start with the fantasy behind it and the Warhammer World itself, and then work back from there, worrying about real life parallels and what silly little numbers to put next to units after the fact.

Consider also just how expansive this army list really needs to be - does it need to be a full feature-length army book? Kislev gets by with just a small selection of core units after all, and wants only for War Wagons.

And if it does need to be a full feature-length army then I'd almost be tempted to look at making it a composite with fantasy Korea and import some stuff like rocket-powered arrow throwers as a Rare war machine. Would that be taking two richly diverse mythologies, backgrounds and histories and stitching them together just from vague aesthetic coincidences? Sure, but no more so than the Russian/Polish/Ukranian fantasy chimera that is Kislev. It's an option to think about, is what I'm saying.

[Alarantalara]

I would also get rid of the Dragon as a character mount. Eastern Dragons do not let people ride on them like their western cousins in the Old World, as they are too proud for it and consider being someone's mount to be demeaning. On the other hand they do fight alongside armies of men from time to time when it suits their interests, so an unridden Dragon would make a nice big scary Rare unit monster instead of the elephants.

I thought about suggesting that and then remembered Spirited Away. It's actually not too hard to find ridden Asian dragons if you go looking. Here's a Chinese one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_pain ... g_a_dragon

While it would be fun to make them rare choices as well, there might be an issue with a flying terror monster under 2000 points. The only other instance where that's possible is Dark Elves and it costs two hero choices and is easier to kill than a dragon.

[mattyfenby]

I want to start just by saying thank you very very much to everyone who took the time to read my ramblings or check this out. I sincerely appreciate your feedback and it is insanely helpful. I might not always have the same perspective or opinion as one of you and I might not take every suggestion but there are already so many things that you guys have helped me to think about.

Also, as this is Fantasy, maybe look at some of the mythological creatures that you might be able to slap in.

This is absolutely something I am looking at for all the "DLC" and also weighing it against trying to get real life awesome animals into 6th Edition. For India, the Southlands, and other locations I am trying to put sweet real life animals that hold their own in the fantasy setting. I do also want to include mythological creatures that the different cultures have believed in and I continue to look for more of those. My plan for Nippon, for example, includes Onigawara which will be like Daemonic Trolls and Kitsune which will be like daemonic warhounds but spirit-fox-y. Cathay will have Terracotta Warriors as their own little Undead Constructs. The animals I'm seeing in the Viet myths are the giant turtle, a whale, the elephants, a phoenix, in some places along the Mekong the Naga (which would be in the Snakemen of Khuresh List) and maybe a few other things. Your feedback is very good though and I will be thinking about this a lot. I want it to be fun and fantasy-y too.

Any chance of some of the regular infantry moving to core with a martial Lord choice? I wouldn't cut anything though: it's about the same number of options as the Ogre Kingdoms book when it came out and I think reducing it more would probably keep you from expressing variety in creating alternate lists.

If anything, I think you'd want to add one more hero choice to help express how this army is different. Think the Dark Elf beastmaster, the Wood Elf Branchwraith, the Empire Warrior Priest, the Ogre Hunter, the Lizardman Skink Chief, the Dwarf Engineer, you get the idea. Basically every army but High Elves has one, though the Bretonnian's mandatory standard bearer is pushing the definition a bit.

I think I'd want a more appropriate dragon. I don't recall Asian dragons breathing poison or anything else as an attack. What if you gave it Forked Lightning from the Lore of Heavens as a bound spell instead? It could even use it twice per turn like a Treeman. You could even continue the theme and give it The Rain Lord from the Lore of Life as an upgrade (presumably limiting it to two castings per turn, just a choice of spells).

This is all such good feedback! Thank you very much. Another writer I think has convinced me to cut the Hot Pot Launcher, especially as it can just be taken as a Dogs choice anyways. As for the Crossbowmen and Footmen being Core if there is a martial Lord, I fully agree, I love that, and that is going in the book. When it comes to that 'alternate' Hero choice, I have put one in for Chaos Dwarfs (Daemonsmith), Cathay (Alchemist), Ind (Mahout), Araby (Hashshashin), the Southlands (Mystic), and Albion (Truthsayer - already exists in 6th). I am not sure what I would want to put in for Au Lac or if it truly needs one. When it comes to the Asian Dragon, you are 100% right that it should have its own distinct identity from the Forest Dragon. Giving it something Heaven-y definitely lines up and I will be thinking hard about this.

I'm a little confused about how any of these things are supposed to work, since the bestiary seems to just be a bunch of numbers at the moment, but if you're asking about things to cut from the unit list I have thoughts.

The first thing I would cut is actually the War Elephants, since weaponised elephants in Warhammer are already a special Araby thing alongside the flying carpets.

Next I would also dispense with the hot pot, partially because you're already unsure about it, but mostly because again hot pots are specifically a halfling thing. They're a special kind of warfare employed by halflings when threatened by something serious, and are already freely available as a Mercenary unit to boot.

The Ox chariot on the other hand sounds like a very neat idea and is something I'd keep.

I would also get rid of the Dragon as a character mount. Eastern Dragons do not let people ride on them like their western cousins in the Old World, as they are too proud for it and consider being someone's mount to be demeaning. On the other hand they do fight alongside armies of men from time to time when it suits their interests, so an unridden Dragon would make a nice big scary Rare unit monster instead of the elephants.

Either way they will by necessity have different abilities from the Wood Elf Forest Dragons, as those are a specific breed of dragon entirely unique to Athel Loren and found nowhere else.

I would also think about shifting the Cấm Binh to a Rare unit as well, which fills out the Rare section and makes the Special section less crowded. Possibly even swap the Ox Cart to Special and the Tunnellers to Rare too if we're getting really crazy.

Consider also making the Villagers skirmishers as well, to reinforce the light guerilla resistance fantasy.

That is in general the guiding star you should be aiming at, fantasy. The Warhammer world is completely divorced from our one, it has much more in common with Discworld than it does real life history. Like Discworld, the Warhammer world is a world of fantasy and fantasy archetypes. Take Bretonnia for instance - Bretonnia has nothing at all to do with France and everything to do with chivalric romance, with any French sounding elements being entirely coincidental to the decisive matter of being Chivalric Romance Land. Likewise Araby has far more to do with popular depictions of Arabian Nights-esque mythos than any actual real-life Islamic caliphate, which is why they have lots of war elephants and flying carpets but no cannons or bombards.

So if you are creating a new civilisation out of whole cloth, you should start with the fantasy behind it and the Warhammer World itself, and then work back from there, worrying about real life parallels and what silly little numbers to put next to units after the fact.

Consider also just how expansive this army list really needs to be - does it need to be a full feature-length army book? Kislev gets by with just a small selection of core units after all, and wants only for War Wagons.

And if it does need to be a full feature-length army then I'd almost be tempted to look at making it a composite with fantasy Korea and import some stuff like rocket-powered arrow throwers as a Rare war machine. Would that be taking two richly diverse mythologies, backgrounds and histories and stitching them together just from vague aesthetic coincidences? Sure, but no more so than the Russian/Polish/Ukranian fantasy chimera that is Kislev. It's an option to think about, is what I'm saying.

Thank you very much for this thoughtful feedback! I hear your message loud and clear that my lore and theme-y stuff is missing, and I have neglected that part of the Chaos Dwarfs Army Book so far too. Their Lore-y stuff would include fighting with the Snakemen of Khuresh, fending off invasions from Cathay and even occasionally Hobgoblins or Ogres, maybe there's a WorldRoot in the middle of the Hinterlands leading to Athel Loren and that explains the Fairy Princess marrying Asian Dragonman as the mythological origin story of Au Lac, something like that. The first King would be a legendary Lord, the Trung Sisters would be legendary Lords, maybe even Ba Trieu in the mix or getting an honorable mention? I think you have the right instinct on the Hot Pot Launcher and I am going to cut that. I am reflecting very hard on cutting the War Elephants. The Trung Sisters are kind of what started me down the road of wanting to adapt a Vietnam Army. They are always pictured on their Elephants. I do also have to weigh that against diluting the uniqueness of the Stegadon and Arabyan Elephant. If the Southlands, Ind, Au Lac, Araby, and the Lizardmen all have it, it is less of a unique unit. On the other other hand, they are awesome! I've found models for them, and they are exactly the type of fantasy vibe I am looking for- including our awesome real life animals into the mix against the mythological ones. I have received feedback from other writers about the Dragon and I agree with you guys that they need to have their own identity. I do want this to be a stand-alone Army Book and I actually do have plans for Cathay to have a rocket arrow thrower like one of these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huo_Che. I do want to lean into fun things like 1001 Nights with Flying Carpets (like Discs of Tzneetch?) for Araby and Genies/Djinn/Jin for Araby that are like Bound Spell Items but 3 Use instead of 1 Use Only. I ALSO want to give them a Bombard Cannon and Grenadiers (Like Skaven Globadiers) and I like to meld real world history with 6th Edition wherever compatible. I honestly think it is cool when mixed and I know the Warhammer game makers definitely would rip from history and then tweak some names just as often as they would use King Arthur and other fun stories. I want to weave them together and I sincerely appreciate your perspective being different from mine because that is keeping me honest and making me reflect on things. Ultimately I think my lists will be greatly improved from this. I'm glad there's a vote for the Ox-Cart! I'm thinking it would function very similarly to an Orc Boar Chariot.

I thought about suggesting that and then remembered Spirited Away. It's actually not too hard to find ridden Asian dragons if you go looking. Here's a Chinese one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_pain ... g_a_dragon

While it would be fun to make them rare choices as well, there might be an issue with a flying terror monster under 2000 points. The only other instance where that's possible is Dark Elves and it costs two hero choices and is easier to kill than a dragon.

I am definitely going to have to think long and hard about how to handle Asian dragons. I am planning for Nippon, Cathay, and Au Lac to all have access to Dragons. Maybe they can each get a different flavour, like High Elf, Dark Elf, and Wood Elf Dragons? I'm not sure. It's something I will be working hard on.

Thank you all very very much for taking the time, I sincerely appreciate it I and I will be using it to make this better.

[Kakapo42]

I thought about suggesting that and then remembered Spirited Away. It's actually not too hard to find ridden Asian dragons if you go looking. Here's a Chinese one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_pain ... g_a_dragon

I'm sure it's not hard at all, but I'm not talking about Asian dragons, I'm talking about Warhammer dragons. The precedent in Warhammer, at least from GW's standpoint, is that the dragons that live in the eastern parts of the Warhammer world don't let people ride on them.

It's mentioned in this interview with the Total War video game developers, who are evidently working off GW's own design notes: https://youtu.be/JQEOEpgPBuU?si=Krfp2FMFgKP1Mu68&t=1341

Granted it is the Total War video game team pulling from recent GW material, but the creative decision to include an eastern dragon character mount will necessitate a strong case from other Warhammer sources, and will elicit other people bringing up the same question.

While it would be fun to make them rare choices as well, there might be an issue with a flying terror monster under 2000 points. The only other instance where that's possible is Dark Elves and it costs two hero choices and is easier to kill than a dragon.

That is easy enough to manage by making them take up a Lords choice as well as a Rare one, the same way Shaggoth Champions and Treeman Ancients do. That way they can't be used in skirmishes below 2000 points. There are design tools that exist in 6th edition for such contingencies.

I am reflecting very hard on cutting the War Elephants. The Trung Sisters are kind of what started me down the road of wanting to adapt a Vietnam Army. They are always pictured on their Elephants. I do also have to weigh that against diluting the uniqueness of the Stegadon and Arabyan Elephant. If the Southlands, Ind, Au Lac, Araby, and the Lizardmen all have it, it is less of a unique unit. On the other other hand, they are awesome! I've found models for them, and they are exactly the type of fantasy vibe I am looking for- including our awesome real life animals into the mix against the mythological ones.

In that case I would definitely cut the War Elephants. Not only will they dilute the uniqueness of the Araby War Elephants, but they also come at the opportunity cost of adding in something else that's just as cool while being more unique.

Elephants may be awesome, but they are not the only awesome animal out there. There are plenty of other creatures, both real and fantastic, that you can add in instead. You can give Ind giant tigers instead, you can give Southlands giant Rhinos or Hippos, you can throw in really giant hornets that are bigger than people just like they are in my nightmares. You can add giant 4-faced animated temple statues, especially if you make Au Lac a kind of south-east Asia mashup (again, don't be afraid to, there's already an eastern Europe mashup with Kislev and it can't be any worse than that).

Leave the elephants for Araby, since War Elephants are already an iconic Araby thing from Warmaster, and add in something like a giant 4-faced animated statue or a giant snow leopard or something instead. Or even just an unridden eastern dragon as a big scary monster.

And remember, it is possible to have too many units in a game faction (case in point, Space Marines in 9th edition 40k). The point at which that happens is something of a case-by-case basis, but it is something to be wary of.

For the Trung Sisters shoutout, you can always split them lengthways into two separate sets of characters - the fully authentic homage as a historical background character(s) that don't appear in the game like Giles Le Breton or the Everchosens before Archaeon or the guy that killed Vlad Von Carstein (I want to say he was a Grand Theogonist), and then their descendants that don't ride actual elephants but otherwise do appear in the game and still touch on some of the other key aspects. This is another reason why it's so important to start with the fantasy and lore and then work back from there - Warhammer civilisations are much bigger than army lists, and not all of their historical figures have or need silly made-up numbers behind them.

[mattyfenby]

I will give your reply a much better answer later because it deserves a good one but I just cant stop myself from quickly replying now on my phone- I am already on the same page as you with a lot of the other animals!

For Ind, I want a Rare option to be the Bengal Tiger, which would be like a Carnosaur meets a Rhinoxen.

For Southlands, Hippos and Rhinos are like Chaos Monstrous mounts, and I am toying with a Giraffe letting its rider see over terrain and troops or something?

I am definitely definitely on board with you on including so many real and fantastic options, and at the same time trying to keep as close to 4 Core, 4 Special, 2 Rare as I can so I’m not drowning the player with options.

I will do a much better response back at my computer but thank you again!

[mattyfenby]

I'm sure it's not hard at all, but I'm not talking about Asian dragons, I'm talking about Warhammer dragons. The precedent in Warhammer, at least from GW's standpoint, is that the dragons that live in the eastern parts of the Warhammer world don't let people ride on them.

It's mentioned in this interview with the Total War video game developers, who are evidently working off GW's own design notes: https://youtu.be/JQEOEpgPBuU?si=Krfp2FMFgKP1Mu68&t=1341

In that case I would definitely cut the War Elephants. Not only will they dilute the uniqueness of the Araby War Elephants, but they also come at the opportunity cost of adding in something else that's just as cool while being more unique.

Elephants may be awesome, but they are not the only awesome animal out there. There are plenty of other creatures, both real and fantastic, that you can add in instead. You can give Ind giant tigers instead, you can give Southlands giant Rhinos or Hippos, you can throw in really giant hornets that are bigger than people just like they are in my nightmares. You can add giant 4-faced animated temple statues, especially if you make Au Lac a kind of south-east Asia mashup (again, don't be afraid to, there's already an eastern Europe mashup with Kislev and it can't be any worse than that).

Leave the elephants for Araby, since War Elephants are already an iconic Araby thing from Warmaster, and add in something like a giant 4-faced animated statue or a giant snow leopard or something instead. Or even just an unridden eastern dragon as a big scary monster.

And remember, it is possible to have too many units in a game faction (case in point, Space Marines in 9th edition 40k). The point at which that happens is something of a case-by-case basis, but it is something to be wary of.

For the Trung Sisters shoutout, you can always split them lengthways into two separate sets of characters - the fully authentic homage as a historical background character(s) that don't appear in the game like Giles Le Breton or the Everchosens before Archaeon or the guy that killed Vlad Von Carstein (I want to say he was a Grand Theogonist), and then their descendants that don't ride actual elephants but otherwise do appear in the game and still touch on some of the other key aspects. This is another reason why it's so important to start with the fantasy and lore and then work back from there - Warhammer civilisations are much bigger than army lists, and not all of their historical figures have or need silly made-up numbers behind them.

Thank you very much for continuing to put more thought into this and for sharing your perspective on this project! I sincerely believe this is the kind of conversation I needed to be having with other people to be able to get the Books properly made. I am going to attach a link to my outline for all the remaining "DLC" Armies for 6th so I can stop responding to each idea I like with "That is going in another other book!"

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1frHefe ... sp=sharing

This shows my current roadmap for Au Lac, Cathay, Nippon, Araby, Southlands, Albion, Amazon Women of Lustria, and Snakemen of Khuresh. I have removed Hot Pot Launchers from Au Lac, Cathay, and Nippon and I have put asterisks on Au Lac's Footmen and Crossbowmen for them being Core in an army led by the martial Lord. I currently still have Elephants for many races but I do hear your concern about diluting the individual awesomeness of each army by making it so common. I like that they are already in the lore for Araby and I grew up loving the Hannibal coming towards Rome with Elephants thing. But then of course they are in sub-Saharan Africa, where I am exploring other cool real life animals that hold their own against the mystical. And then for Ind the Mahout special alternate character is like a Beastmaster so I wanted to give him a sweet amount of options. And then like I've already said, the Trung Sisters are so cool to me. I see your suggestion about making them a lore only part of the Army Book, but I envision them more as Sisters of Twilight level named Legendary Lords that can be brought to the table top. That doesn't necessarily mean that War Elephants should be part of the main roster, however, and I can certainly try to continue investigating cool mythological creatures to put in Au Lac's lineup. The main issue I am running into there is that it seems like the ones that aren't overlapped with the Snakemen or Cathay are very aquatic. Like, Idoneth Deepkin aquatic. I'm not against trying to make that work but it is a little intimidating.

As for the Asian Dragons vs Warhammer Eastern Dragons nuance, I think that is a great point to raise. I haven't looked at it well enough yet to say 100% no Eastern Dragons will be ride-able in any book period but I am definitely open to that. I do think there is value in looking at what the real life cultures believe but I also want to follow established stuff in the Warhammer story. Since these seem to be possibly shapeshifting back and forth from single person form to Asian wingless Dragon form it might be a lot easier from a table top game making perspective to preclude them from ever being mounts if there will ever be a model swap situation or a Teclis style you choose which statline you're operating under situation. I know you prefer to approach it from the lore side rather than the game side but if those two things align then even better, right?

Hippos and Rhinos I want to be pretty much your generic monstrous mount from Hordes of Chaos except Hippos would be "Aquatic" and Rhinos would benefit from a Strength bonus on the charge and possibly be "Frenzied." A Giraffe I am thinking could be a generic monstrous mount except it grants LOS over interposing models/terrain like being on top of a hill? Cheetahs are M10 Fast Cavalry like even faster Dire Wolves or Warhounds. Other animals included would just be for aesthetic purposes and would not change gameplay such as Camel mounts for some Arabyans counting as Warhorses or Zebras for Southlands. Vultures would be like Carrion but alive. There are so many wonderful animals from our Earth that belong right in there with the myth-iest of the creatures. I did put some of those in, too, though with Kitsune and Terracotta Warriors and giving Nippon access to Hydras and Manticores, etc etc.

None of this is set in stone and it will take me years to complete but I am going to continue to chip away at it. I have a Chaos Dwarfs book in a playable state now and I am in the process of getting a full roster of models of them tabletop ready. I appreciate the help I get on here very very much.