Stubborn or Immune to Psychology?

[Thoric]

Hail, fellow-gamers!

I am re-organizing my Dwarfs for a themed army. I have to choose between two options for my main regiment: Hammerers (stubborn) or Longbeards with the Rune of Courage (immune to psychology). The cost is almost the same: 400 pts. for the Hammerers (including a Rune of Battle) and 402 for the Longbeards (included the Rune of Courage). Mumble! Mumble! What to choose?

[Just Tony]

One effects all leadership-based tests, and one only affects psychology testing with an auto pass. This leaves you vulnerable to break checks. I know which one I would choose.

[mattyfenby]

Tony makes a good point about the importance of break tests.

One devils advocate point i would make is that the answer may depend on the points value of the battle/whether or not you are planning to “castle/turtle” and run a stay at home shooting line or whether you are planning to march right in there and mix it up in CC.

*WARNING WE PLAY WITH THE REVISED DWARFS BOOK* Our club has seen, at least at the 1500 point level, that a Dwarf army that can sit in the deployment zone and be immune to psych tests caused by magic/shooting/terror bombs can do some damage with their thunderers and war machines, only taking CCs against weakened opponents who have trudged across the table under heavy fire.

This castle/turtle plan will probably not work as smoothly at 2.5k or above and will probably not work on a table densely packed with LOS blocking terrain.

[Thoric]

One effects all leadership-based tests, and one only affects psychology testing with an auto pass. This leaves you vulnerable to break checks. I know which one I would choose.

So you vote for the Hammerers, right?

[mattyfenby]

I think he did mean the Stubborn Hammerers, but i dont think Stubborn affects ‘all LD based tests’- page 85 of the BRB states “Stubborn troops take all Break tests on their unmodified Leadership value.” It says nothing about all other LD based tests

[Thoric]

I think he did mean the Stubborn Hammerers, but i dont think Stubborn affects ‘all LD based tests’- page 85 of the BRB states “Stubborn troops take all Break tests on their unmodified Leadership value.” It says nothing about all other LD based tests

You are correct. Stubborn does not affect psychology tests.

[Thoric]

Tony makes a good point about the importance of break tests.

One devils advocate point i would make is that the answer may depend on the points value of the battle/whether or not you are planning to “castle/turtle” and run a stay at home shooting line or whether you are planning to march right in there and mix it up in CC.

*WARNING WE PLAY WITH THE REVISED DWARFS BOOK* Our club has seen, at least at the 1500 point level, that a Dwarf army that can sit in the deployment zone and be immune to psych tests caused by magic/shooting/terror bombs can do some damage with their thunderers and war machines, only taking CCs against weakened opponents who have trudged across the table under heavy fire.

This castle/turtle plan will probably not work as smoothly at 2.5k or above and will probably not work on a table densely packed with LOS blocking terrain.

Hello!
You put much meat on the fire. So, let's go in order.
About the battle size, in my game groups we use the traditional 2000 points standard. No scenario.
About the army book, I just published a post on this forum about this subject, to which Tony contributed. When we decided to keep playing the 6th edition there were some doubts about the Dwarfs army book to use. In the end I was persuaded that it is fairer to use the book published in the 2000.
About the tactics, I stick to the classic dwarf strategy to sit back, shoot and wait for him to come. I know that many gamers do not like it, but the truth is that for me it always worked very good (In the 6th edition. With the coming of 7th I begun to have big problems) and my friends «hate» (ironically) me for that. So, if something works good and you like it, why to change?

[mattyfenby]

In that case, if you are really going to take a 400 pt unit (which, maybe if you dont have to, you shouldnt? but that wasnt your original post question) and you like to play back and shoot for a few turns, playing points denial and sitting an Immune to Psych unit behind lines of Thunderers might be the play.

There are some other guys on here with way more Dwarfs experience than me though so I will try to stop always replying and see if anyone else has suggestions.

[Just Tony]

Yes, Hammerers. Longbeards are basically just marginally improved Warriors who don't Panic. That's it. You have this one niche scenario on the field that they benefit from their special rule. ITP makes them apply to more things, but if you don't go against something that causes Fear or Terror, then they become a point sink. There is, however, the comedic value of them being targeted by a spell that doesn't affect ITP units because the opponent won't know until it's too late that you gave them ITP. But how much would THAT one far out scenario be worth?

The Hammerers just strike me as an all-around better selection.






And yeah, in my sleep deprived state I guffed what all Stubborn covers.

[Thoric]

In that case, if you are really going to take a 400 pt unit (which, maybe if you dont have to, you shouldnt? but that wasnt your original post question) and you like to play back and shoot for a few turns, playing points denial and sitting an Immune to Psych unit behind lines of Thunderers might be the play.

There are some other guys on here with way more Dwarfs experience than me though so I will try to stop always replying and see if anyone else has suggestions.

Hello Matty!
Oh yes, absolutely. When I begun to play the 6th edition, more than 20 years ago, everybody told me that now everything was different and the strength was in numbers, so I tried to field a longer battle line (4 units 20 dwarfs strong each one). The results were almost always very poor. Then, a friend of mine explained me that this option is good only if you want play more offensively. If I wanted to use the old tactic I used in the 5th I had to use the same concentration I used in the 5th. So, I reversed to the usual battle line of 3 regiments 25 dwarfs each. And the results immediatly improved a lot. Something changed in the 7th edition when this tactic seemed no longer work, or better, worked only if I gave up the Dwarf Lord for a Rune Lord with the Anvil. But I am sentimentally attached to the idea of the Dwarf King leading his army!

P.S. In the glory days of the 5th edition, my 3 regiments were Hammerers, Longbeards and Ironbreakers. The General of the army was the much feared King Kazador of Karak-Azul!

[Thoric]

Yes, Hammerers. Longbeards are basically just marginally improved Warriors who don't Panic. That's it. You have this one niche scenario on the field that they benefit from their special rule. ITP makes them apply to more things, but if you don't go against something that causes Fear or Terror, then they become a point sink. There is, however, the comedic value of them being targeted by a spell that doesn't affect ITP units because the opponent won't know until it's too late that you gave them ITP. But how much would THAT one far out scenario be worth?

The Hammerers just strike me as an all-around better selection.






And yeah, in my sleep deprived state I guffed what all Stubborn covers.

Hello, Tony!
As a matter of fact, I always used Hammerers and the results were good. I suppose I was too much influenced from a recent bad experience. My friend Giuseppe (an evil follower of Tzeench who pretend to be a normal accountant) landed his exalted daemon near my army. Crossbowmen and Warriors passed the Terror test while the Hammerers led by the King fled with the tail between their legs. Such a shame! But luckily, this is a rare occurrance. I think that I will use the Hammerers in normal circumstances and I will use Longbeards Immune to Psychology only when I play against Luigi (he hides his true identity behind that of an innocent business owner, but we all know he is in reality a vampire).

[Jonathan E]

Yes, Hammerers. Longbeards are basically just marginally improved Warriors who don't Panic. That's it. You have this one niche scenario on the field that they benefit from their special rule. ITP makes them apply to more things, but if you don't go against something that causes Fear or Terror, then they become a point sink. There is, however, the comedic value of them being targeted by a spell that doesn't affect ITP units because the opponent won't know until it's too late that you gave them ITP. But how much would THAT one far out scenario be worth?

Making Slaanesh Chaos players cry into their control spells is priceless.

But yeah, I really rate Hammerers in Dwarfs, especially if you want to play the Victory Point Denial game and bunker your characters up in there too.