17 power dice hordes of chaos list…

[Jimbo81]

I’m just getting back in to 6th edition; a friend told me about his 17 power dice build for the Hordes of Chaos army. Does anyone know this build and what’s in it?

[Just Tony]

Ah, the ol' Tzeentch Power Dice Spam netlist. Figured someone would come across it in the wild again...




So the premise is as follows:

Army - 2 Power Dice
Chaos Lord with Mark of Tzeentch - 4 Power Dice
Chaos Aspiring/Exalted Champion with Mark of Tzeentch - 2 Power Dice
Chaos Aspiring/Exalted Champion with Mark of Tzeentch - 2 Power Dice
Chaos Aspiring/Exalted Champion with Mark of Tzeentch - 2 Power Dice

That's 12 Power Dice per turn so far. From there it's as many Marked Mortal units as you can fit in with the points. Chariots are the cheapest route.


This looks absolutely OP on paper, but the Tzeentch Lore is a little bit of an unreliable Lore for spells. And if you've got ANY speed to you? You get there where they don't have any Combat Resolution and you steamroller over them. The key is figuring out which spells need diced the most. That D6" Magic Missile that has a Streng of D6? I wouldn't waste time. THAT is assuming they actually cast and don't draw miscasts from throwing too many dice at once. I've run a Tzeentch list and I've run against a Tzeentch list, and I can honestly say that there are scarier netlists out there.








Oh, and welcome to the board!

[Jimbo81]

What a great response! Thanks for that. I’m looking at the army I want and that TZ list above looks great.

Is there a very strong combat lord build?

Loving the Tz lord is automatically a wizard rule.

[Just Tony]

Tzeentch Lords are excellent sorcerers and warriors. The problem is that this winds up being VERY expensive for points, and your actual army will be tiny. You'll also find that the Magic Phase won't be as devastating as you're hoping with randomizing hits and the like, AND that it won't be as easy to get all your spells off in the first place.


Balanced lists are always a better option.

[Jonathan E]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: you overpay for those Tzeentch heroes. It's just more dice for a mediocre Lore of Magic. I advise you to keep the Tzeentch Lord (Golden Eye of Tzeentch and a monstrous mount of some sort) but trade the lesser heroes down for Sorcerers or Bray Shamans. They're cheaper, and they'll give you a better toolbox.

The power in a Chaos army's magic phase comes from the Beasts and Shadows spells moving your units about out of sequence and controlling the board, and a Beasts-centric army plays into that better (with access to the Staff of Darkoath and wilder deployment options). The scariest version of this Moah Powah Dice approach I've faced had Knights, Ogres and Minotaurs, plus an Ambushing Beast Herd with a Shaman attached. Comes at you from at least three directions and everything bullies across the board fast anyway. I think it capped out at 14 dice, but it was able to do so much more with them than just "OK, kill a few models at range and pretend you're Skaven without guns."

[Jimbo81]

Great advice. Thanks guys.

[Just Tony]

One of the things to keep in mind about a list like this is that there is a difference between POTENTIAL damage output and STATISTICAL damage output. Sure, the max amount of damage the Tzeentch spells cause look horrific, but how close do you come to actually GETTING that damage output? Take Green fire, for example, which makes the unit fight itself. You might say to yourself "Whoa! 20 dead dudes!!!" but look a little deeper. Assuming you were lucky enough to roll and GET that spell, AND assuming that you actually successfully cast it without it getting dispelled, then you're looking at half the attacks hitting with only half of those hits wounding, statistically. That's assuming the unit wasn't Immune to Psychology in the first place and immune to the spell, and that they are armed with normal hand weapons. I've gone moist on more than one occasion at the thought of making a unit of Swordmasters fight itself, but that always drew out the scrolls. Ultimately, like always, you are better off with a balanced list. Or the tactics that Jonathan mentioned already.







While we're on this topic I want to address netlists in general. Every army seems to have some bizarre hyperfocused gimmick list like this. Skaven SAD army, Bretonnian RAF, the like. If you look at what they accomplish, then you'd see these lists are only any real good against other lists of the same pattern. Look, 4 units of 10 Pegasus Knights. That's great, how many ranks do skirmishing flyer units get again? Zero? Good luck with your res. How many get into base contact? Four? Good luck doing enough damage to TOUCH the opponent's res. "But wait," I hear you say "you can flank them and cancel the ranks!!!" Yeah, unless you're a unit of skirmishers who NEVER cancel ranks. Nothing but Skrye shooting units? You hit on 5's if you're lucky. Assuming you don't blow yourself up or have some other comically Skaven thing happen.

Nobody running Core heavy full regiments as an army dread these things.

[Jimbo81]

The passion here is awesome. Best forum ever.

[Jonathan E]

But Tony, full Skryre shooting is heavy on Core infantry! How else do you get all six Ratling Guns onto the table?

[Just Tony]

Bare minimum regiment size to get the guns. That's where it goes. Plus you need bunkers for all the Warlocks, right? Either way, it isn't like they spam Clanrat units at 5x5 when making those Skrye lists. Am I wrong?

[mattyfenby]

Tony and Jonathan are right on with the concept that a balanced list is scarier than a gimmicky one in my non expert experience.

HOWEVER, and I know this was jokingly mentioned but, I think the way you need a block of 20 clanrats to unlock each jezzail line sort of guarantees that you are bringing an anvil block for each shooting unit, right? So I may tend to think that the SAD army is scarier than the average gimmick since it sort of self regulates and forces you not to run purely lines of gunners.

HAVING SAID THAT, ranks and static CR is where it is at, can't agree with Jonathan and Tony more on that. I have faced Empire lists that are pure shooting and I have faced Empire lists that are shooting heavy but with anvils. The ones that had some balance were much more likely to win, able to show resiliency rather than relying on maximizing potential damage output to survive. I only think the Skaven are able to be so strong in their setup with ranked up "LD 8" rats and their attached ratlings. I definitely would be more scared of a Jonathan 14 power dice list with stronger spells and hammer units and ambushing units rather than one that sits back and uses Tzneetch magic with 17 dice and a ton of chariots.

IF I WERE going to run a power dice spam list where the object is to sit in the deployment zone and hit the enemy with spells, I think I would gravitate to High Elves. Everything Tony said about how spells on paper look way sicker than they perform on average in life still applies, but High Elves have the ability to pick spells with the Seer honour, have the ability to target units at unlimited range without LOS with the Lore of Heavens, and have the Banner of Sorcery on a unit of Greatswords as well as other magic items to boost power. I would rely on Bolt Throwers, a line or two of cheap archers, and my magic to project damage across the field, while sitting my characters in the Greatswords behind spearmen blocks that can face charges with 3 ranks. So even then, I'm cheating on the assignment and putting anvil blocks in there to make the strategy work. This gets you to about 13-14+D3 power dice with some CC power to back it up.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, as I am still learning and don't have too too much experience with or against specialized Chaos armies yet.

[Jonathan E]

Bare minimum regiment size to get the guns. That's where it goes. Plus you need bunkers for all the Warlocks, right? Either way, it isn't like they spam Clanrat units at 5x5 when making those Skrye lists. Am I wrong?

It's still a bunch of 4x5 blocks showing up and they can do the combat work at a pinch, especially if they've opted for a Chieftain in one of the Hero slots (my longest serving rival does this just so he's got somewhere to put the Bands of Power and cut up anything with good saves that makes it through the Nonsense). I feel you're splitting hairs a bit if you're talking about the presence of an extra file - the list is still "heavy on Core infantry".

... goodstuff ...

Hey, I'm with you on the Skaven. I'm trying that thing where I ask questions and use humour to leaven the points I'm making. I do think the SAD is pretty strong though, especially if it's flooding its front line with flail Slaves and a Swarm. I suppose the "balance" part is that it's not pure Skryre shooting - it's a lot worse when it has a few Moulder units to play around with as well. Bloody rat darts...

You're very kind about the Chaos build. It was my pal Joseph who came up with it and proceeded to steamroller my Wood Elves off the board in about three turns. I wouldn't do exactly the same thing (I really don't like what he did with his Battle Standard Bearer) but it doesn't want much refining. I'll see if I can get the exact list off him.

That High Elf list is pretty sweaty, which I mean as a compliment. They're another army where "wizard spam and Core stuff" is pretty strong as most of the Specials have too steep of an opportunity cost. (I really wish White Lions were on a level with Swordmasters as I like the Honour that moves them down to Special, but Intrigue at Court undermines their shtick a bit as they may have to bodyguard someone who isn't the Lion Guard Prince you built to roll with them.)

[Just Tony]

I lose bonus points for forgetting that minimum Clanrat unit size is 20. Bad Tony.



However, it also depends on what all is going to constitute a SAD army. If they run max Jezzails and Warp Lightning Cannons, which every SAD build I ever saw tended to, you'd wind up spending 1,000 points on that alone. The number of regiments you can squeeze in from there is fairly limited unless you plan on a lone nekkid Warlock as your leader since you're concentrating on shooting damage.

Personally my own Skrye list would look like this:

Hero: Warlock - 45 points
Core: Clanrats (25) - Spears, Full Command, Ratling Gun Team - 235 points
Core: Clanrats (25) - Spears, Full Command, Ratling Gun Team - 235 points
Core: Clanrats (25) - Spears, Full Command, Ratling Gun Team - 235 points
Core: Clanrats (25) - Spears, Full Command, Ratling Gun Team - 235 points
Core: Clanrats (25) - Spears, Full Command, Ratling Gun Team - 235 points
Core: Clanrats (25) - Spears, Full Command, Ratling Gun Team - 235 points
Core: Clanrats (25) - Spears, Full Command, Ratling Gun Team - 235 points
Core: Clanrats (25) - Spears, Full Command, Ratling Gun Team - 235 points
Special: Jezzails (6) - 120 points

TOTAL: 2,000 points


No stressing over magic, a ridiculous amount of shooting to thin ranks, and solid enough units to be able to hold ground once what's left makes it to my line. My list is probably a bit different than your typical SAD army. THIS one would worry me, though.

[Jonathan E]

I think you lose a lot of the "tech" in the army by not taking a Rat Swarm or any Giant Rat packs, but you've always been one for purity of vision. I do respect the lone Warlock gimmick - probably the only caster in the game where you're not throwing Power Dice away by doing that!

I wouldn't take full Jezzails, for what it's worth. No ranks, no faith, no trust, no hope. For me the strength of the list is in directing Ratling Gun shots and Warp Lightning casts into combat, and having disposable (Slaves/"Rat Darts") or Unbreakable (Rat Swarm) chaff to go out and get into combat so the enemy is stalled. Jezzails are a novelty for sniping at Large Targets until they inevitably fail a Panic or Terror test and run away.

[Jimbo81]

Very hard to look past a TZ list.

I love that the Tz lord is a wizard for free: and a good one, and every Tzeentch Marked unit adds power dice.

Maybe a balanced TZ list that just happens to have a LOT of power dice…

Really like screamers

Thinking largish marauder blocks going 4 wide with shields lead by a tZ fighty character (who happens to be a wizard too).

Also: I must use my helcannon again. It’s been far too long!

[Just Tony]

But... it's not free.

210 point Chaos Lord with a 140 point Mark of Tzeentch. You're at 350 without added gear. Assuming you'll max out allowance because, lets face it, we ALL have to fight the urge to max out allowance, you'll end up with a 450 point character. That's a quarter of your army in 1 dude.

NOW, you want Screamers and a Hellcannon in here. The Hellcannon is 270 points, and your Screamers range from 99 points to 660 points depending on how many you're wanting to field. Notice we haven't even managed to put in a single Core regiment in your required 3 regiments. From there, if you're wanting to generate Power DIce, you have to run units that can be marked. Not an easy proposition with your points tied up this quickly.


Personally I'd run a BSB with Tzeentch and the Blasted Standard. Then you're only needing to throw in a unit of Warriors with the mark. This gives you a sorcerer who holds up in combat, has an awesome bound spell, AND you have exactly enough power dice to make sure that he gets both his spells off comfortably. From there you can bulk up the list with some anvil units and some hard hitters, and STILL have room for your Screamers and Hellcannon.

[TinyLegions]

Remind me again, which magic level is that Chaos Lord Character? On another note, I used to play with an experienced Chaos player, and his take on the magic phase was basically his version of artillery for his army. He really did not use any marks, but he used Sorcerers and Fire lore as his primary magic lore of choice. Why GW did not give Chaos one or two more Lore's is beyond me, but I digress into one of my rants about magic that deserves its own thread.

[Just Tony]

Mark of Tzeentch takes you to the max level of the slot. Hero? Level 2. Lord? Level 4.

And unless you take some Dogs Of War shooting you are stuck with Magic as your only ballistic offense.

[Jimbo81]

At the moment, I’m struggling to NOT take chosen knights of khorne with a khorne lord for absolute carnage…

Still leading towards TZ power list.

At present it’s:

Chaos Lord of Tz (General)
Enchanted shield
Blade of Blood
Gaze of the Gods
Dispell Scroll

3x chariot of Tz

15 chosen warriors, shield, halberd, full command, warbanner, mark of Tz

2x 21 horrors

Firewyrm of Tz

Casting pool 10, dispel pool 4

[Just Tony]

Do me a favor, Jim. Go back and read the Battle Reports on this site. ANY of those balanced army lists from ANY of those reports will give you absolute hell with this list. You have very little in the way of hitting power to risk skipping any ranked units other than the Chosen you have already. How many models do you think each chariot will kill per turn? How many spells do you think you'll get off per turn? How many of those spells do you think will result in dead models?

All things to consider.