My club has been talking about the possibility that Skaven Jezzails are OP and we have found that at the 1500 point level it is extremely tough for any of the 4 of us to secure even a minor victory against the Skaven (our club went 0-4 against this list over the past two years). Even when the Jezzails are all focused down and destroyed by halftime, we have seen that they are doing enough damage to facilitate a win for the magic, ratling gun teams, and blocks of 20 clanrats.
I am going to be Orcs and Goblins next month and I am tasked with defeating this S.A.D and demonstrating that it is not infallible against horde armies.
This is roughly what Skaven will be running:
Warplock Engineer w all the fixins
Warplock Engineer w all the fixins
Warplock Engineer w whatever he can afford
Clanrats x 20 w Ratling Attached
Clanrats x 20 w Ratling Attached
Clanrats x 20 w Ratling Attached
Jezzails x 10
Jezzails x 10
Jezzails x 10
I know we need to show some respect to their magic so I think I will bring two scroll caddies. A common orc Big Boss embedded in a Black Orc unit to project LD 8 onto the surrounding horde. I’m thinking that a ton of naked common goblins as screeners and maybe some blocks of Savage Orc Boyz behind them with the Black Orcs could make sure the clanrat blocks are defeated in CC? So my list might look something like this? What am I overlooking? How can I add to this list and make it better? How have you guys defeated S.A.D lists in the past?
Orc Big Boss. Ard Armour that gives 1+ Save
Shaman w 2 Dispel
Shaman w 2 Dispel
Common Goblins x 20
Common Goblins x 20
Common Goblins x 20
Common Goblins x 20
Common Goblins x 20
Savage Orc Boyz x 25 w addtl hand weapons, full command
Savage Orc Boyz x 25 w addtl hand weapons, full command
Wolf Boyz x 6
Wolf Boyz x 6
Black Orcs x 19 w addtl hand weapons, full command. magic banner: either the butchery one that gives extra A or the Night Banner one that grants -1 to hit when being shot at
As always I appreciate all the time and thought anyone takes to read this, this forum is full of extremely smart people who have educated me a ton on how to play 6th Edition. I’ve also included a poll to see if anyone has thoughts about the state of Jezzails in 6th Edition
Defeating a Skyre Army of Doom at 1500 Points (6th Edition)
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mattyfenby
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:07 am
Re: Defeating a Skyre Army of Doom at 1500 Points (6th Edition)
If you're getting a chance to list tailor I would nab some scouts, fast cav, flyer units, and pay for a DOW wizard to give you access to some of those movement spells. You can also go Lore of Life with some hireling wizards and smack their Jezzails with Master of Wood/Stone or shut down their shooting with The Howler Wind. Or if you have a chance to stick something scarily icky toward them so the player panics a touch and focuses far too much firepower on that threat and leaves the rest of your army alone.
The other option as an Orc and Goblin player is to leave the Orcs at home and bury the enemy in bodies.
The other option as an Orc and Goblin player is to leave the Orcs at home and bury the enemy in bodies.
Re: Defeating a Skyre Army of Doom at 1500 Points (6th Edition)
Almost forgot that the Halfing Hot Pot is a cheap batch of Jezzails-B-Gone. Maybe some Rock Lobbas might come in handy.
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mattyfenby
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:07 am
Re: Defeating a Skyre Army of Doom at 1500 Points (6th Edition)
Thank you very much for taking the time to read all that and for the response. I don’t know if we will use DoW for the exercise but if we do then movement spells or life spells could be the ticket. Unfortunately Jezzails are S6 so they can shoot through Howler Wind, but it is possible the Rain Lord could affect them? They are neither a bowstring weapon nor a gunpowder weapon, so maybe not?
I will definitely take a look at rock lobbas and consider expanding the number of fast cav regardless.
I will definitely take a look at rock lobbas and consider expanding the number of fast cav regardless.
Re: Defeating a Skyre Army of Doom at 1500 Points (6th Edition)
Well I am a little confused about what it is you are asking, but I will try to answer as best and honestly as I can.
If you are asking me how I have defeated Skaven in the past, and what you have overlooked, my honest answer would be that you have perhaps overlooked two or three things.
The first and most important is that the greatest vulnerability of the Skaven is their own paranoia and selfishness, and exploiting this is the key to victory against them. This is doubly true of Skaven armies that rely heavily on warpstone machines in battle, as their survival is dependent on maintaining favourable ties with Clan Skyre.
Unfortunately Greenskins of most kinds have little concept of the finer points of diplomacy that can normally be leveraged to this end, but a cunning Orc or Goblin warlord can still make use of the classic poisoned pill and apple of discord gambits.
The poisoned pill is the simplest of the two and the least demanding of your resources. Simply capture a Skaven belonging to the offending army - a Clanrat Champion is ideal here, but a regular rank-and-file Skaven will work too in a pinch. Then, bring him to audience with you and give him a simple offer - that if he drives a wedge between his army and Clan Skyre, you will be sure to grant him full authority over the remnants once you have defeated them.
The Skaven's natural greed and ambition should make it impossible for him to resist, and you can then release him to return to his unit where he will immediately begin undermining the Skaven general. He will recruit followers, sow dissent amongst the ranks and turn the opinion of the Skyre weapon suppliers against the reigning warlord. This way your opponent will be forced to check for insubordination amongst their Skyre units and with any luck a good chunk of them will turn on the army general or be sabotaged before the game even starts, levelling the playing field somewhat.
The apple of discord is a similar tactic and my own favourite way of defeating powerful Skaven armies. Simply leave a particularly choice treasure along the route of march the Skaven army is taking. Warpstone is of course ideal here, but gold, jewels and weapons or some combination thereof can also work too if necessary. Be sure to carefully select the treasure so that it is impossible to distribute evenly amongst the Skaven, but also that it is coveted by as many as possible.
Next, place the treasure strategically. You need not worry about concealing it, simply leave it in plain view with a note that it is tribute for the mightiest of the lords of the underworld or similar - be sure that the message is as flattering to the Skaven as possible, but also vague about which Skaven in particular it is addressed to. You will also need to be careful to place it so that the army warlord is NOT the first Skaven to find it - he is invariably going to be the most motivated and cunning of the Skaven facing you, and is the hardest to manipulate. Instead you want to target his underlings and subordinates and incite them to fight amongst themselves.
If you have done these steps well, the Skaven will start to argue over which one the treasure is intended for, and their greed, ego and paranoia will take care of the rest, driving them to hoard and fight over the treasure and inflaming the existing fractures of loyalty that every Skaven army possesses to the point of outright violence. This will again force the Skaven army to check for insubordination and betrayal and has good odds of leaving it much more manageable.
Of course, both of these tactics need good reliable information on the politics and personalities of the Skaven army, so you will need to make sure your army has excellent scouting and reconnaissance capabilities and ideally a good, trustworthy and well-placed spy or two.
As for the actual battle itself, you should also be thoughtful towards the nature of the battle itself. With good advance information on the opposing army's route of march, you can take care to fight it in an engagement that mitigates the worst excesses of its advantage, upon a battlefield that also mitigates the worst excesses of its advantage. Remember always that a general who always seeks out Pitched Battles is a poor general indeed - a well-timed Ambush or Meeting Engagement can quickly see even the most insurmountable odds made manageable. As always, the operational level of the game is just as important to consider as the tactical.
Finally, if you are concerned about their magic capabilities then I would caution you to not lean too heavily on passive magic defence, as this is often a false economy, and instead consider a strategy of active magic defence, which will offer you much more utility in battle. Remember, a Dispell Scroll can stop a single spell. A sharp implement or heavy rock to the head of a wizard can stop spells for the rest of the game.
On the other hand, If you are asking how to make your Orc and Goblin army better, then I would answer by adding either a Giant or a unit of Trolls, because Orcs and Goblins can field both, and both are fixtures of classic western fantasy, and you are playing a classic western fantasy game. Dragons are a crucial addition to any High Elf army for much the same reason, but that is for another thread.
If you are asking for assistance in finding a mathematical solution to dealing with a large number of problematic unit of X, then I can't really help much, but I am sure a poster with a more mathematical bent than I will be along to assist very shortly (though I think you should be more clear if that is what you are seeking).
If you are asking me how I have defeated Skaven in the past, and what you have overlooked, my honest answer would be that you have perhaps overlooked two or three things.
The first and most important is that the greatest vulnerability of the Skaven is their own paranoia and selfishness, and exploiting this is the key to victory against them. This is doubly true of Skaven armies that rely heavily on warpstone machines in battle, as their survival is dependent on maintaining favourable ties with Clan Skyre.
Unfortunately Greenskins of most kinds have little concept of the finer points of diplomacy that can normally be leveraged to this end, but a cunning Orc or Goblin warlord can still make use of the classic poisoned pill and apple of discord gambits.
The poisoned pill is the simplest of the two and the least demanding of your resources. Simply capture a Skaven belonging to the offending army - a Clanrat Champion is ideal here, but a regular rank-and-file Skaven will work too in a pinch. Then, bring him to audience with you and give him a simple offer - that if he drives a wedge between his army and Clan Skyre, you will be sure to grant him full authority over the remnants once you have defeated them.
The Skaven's natural greed and ambition should make it impossible for him to resist, and you can then release him to return to his unit where he will immediately begin undermining the Skaven general. He will recruit followers, sow dissent amongst the ranks and turn the opinion of the Skyre weapon suppliers against the reigning warlord. This way your opponent will be forced to check for insubordination amongst their Skyre units and with any luck a good chunk of them will turn on the army general or be sabotaged before the game even starts, levelling the playing field somewhat.
The apple of discord is a similar tactic and my own favourite way of defeating powerful Skaven armies. Simply leave a particularly choice treasure along the route of march the Skaven army is taking. Warpstone is of course ideal here, but gold, jewels and weapons or some combination thereof can also work too if necessary. Be sure to carefully select the treasure so that it is impossible to distribute evenly amongst the Skaven, but also that it is coveted by as many as possible.
Next, place the treasure strategically. You need not worry about concealing it, simply leave it in plain view with a note that it is tribute for the mightiest of the lords of the underworld or similar - be sure that the message is as flattering to the Skaven as possible, but also vague about which Skaven in particular it is addressed to. You will also need to be careful to place it so that the army warlord is NOT the first Skaven to find it - he is invariably going to be the most motivated and cunning of the Skaven facing you, and is the hardest to manipulate. Instead you want to target his underlings and subordinates and incite them to fight amongst themselves.
If you have done these steps well, the Skaven will start to argue over which one the treasure is intended for, and their greed, ego and paranoia will take care of the rest, driving them to hoard and fight over the treasure and inflaming the existing fractures of loyalty that every Skaven army possesses to the point of outright violence. This will again force the Skaven army to check for insubordination and betrayal and has good odds of leaving it much more manageable.
Of course, both of these tactics need good reliable information on the politics and personalities of the Skaven army, so you will need to make sure your army has excellent scouting and reconnaissance capabilities and ideally a good, trustworthy and well-placed spy or two.
As for the actual battle itself, you should also be thoughtful towards the nature of the battle itself. With good advance information on the opposing army's route of march, you can take care to fight it in an engagement that mitigates the worst excesses of its advantage, upon a battlefield that also mitigates the worst excesses of its advantage. Remember always that a general who always seeks out Pitched Battles is a poor general indeed - a well-timed Ambush or Meeting Engagement can quickly see even the most insurmountable odds made manageable. As always, the operational level of the game is just as important to consider as the tactical.
Finally, if you are concerned about their magic capabilities then I would caution you to not lean too heavily on passive magic defence, as this is often a false economy, and instead consider a strategy of active magic defence, which will offer you much more utility in battle. Remember, a Dispell Scroll can stop a single spell. A sharp implement or heavy rock to the head of a wizard can stop spells for the rest of the game.
On the other hand, If you are asking how to make your Orc and Goblin army better, then I would answer by adding either a Giant or a unit of Trolls, because Orcs and Goblins can field both, and both are fixtures of classic western fantasy, and you are playing a classic western fantasy game. Dragons are a crucial addition to any High Elf army for much the same reason, but that is for another thread.
If you are asking for assistance in finding a mathematical solution to dealing with a large number of problematic unit of X, then I can't really help much, but I am sure a poster with a more mathematical bent than I will be along to assist very shortly (though I think you should be more clear if that is what you are seeking).
Please stop calling it "Middlehammer"
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mattyfenby
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:07 am
Re: Defeating a Skyre Army of Doom at 1500 Points (6th Edition)
Thank you very much for the fun response!
I loved reading the great lore-y ways that our general could achieve victory against Clan Skyre.
I hear what you are saying about having fun and using thematic armies- dont worry, we play friendly games with fun lists too! We just are so new to the game that we are having fun trying to learn what the best competitive lists are, too. We enjoy doing the silly fun battles and the competitive sweaty ones too. Next month, before my O&G vs Skaven competitive battle, we are running a 3250 point game of Chaos Dwarfs vs Vampire Counts. Both armies will be crafted to maximize lore-y fun with some new models we are looking forward to enjoying.
Understanding the math of the game and the optimal way to play a given situation is definitely something I am interested in trying to slowly improve on though, too. I am a SLOW learner when it comes to this game constantly having to re look things up and constantly getting myself confused and tripped up over things. When more experienced players on here share their wisdom I have definitely tried to incorporate it into my repertoire.
I loved reading the great lore-y ways that our general could achieve victory against Clan Skyre.
I hear what you are saying about having fun and using thematic armies- dont worry, we play friendly games with fun lists too! We just are so new to the game that we are having fun trying to learn what the best competitive lists are, too. We enjoy doing the silly fun battles and the competitive sweaty ones too. Next month, before my O&G vs Skaven competitive battle, we are running a 3250 point game of Chaos Dwarfs vs Vampire Counts. Both armies will be crafted to maximize lore-y fun with some new models we are looking forward to enjoying.
Understanding the math of the game and the optimal way to play a given situation is definitely something I am interested in trying to slowly improve on though, too. I am a SLOW learner when it comes to this game constantly having to re look things up and constantly getting myself confused and tripped up over things. When more experienced players on here share their wisdom I have definitely tried to incorporate it into my repertoire.
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Alarantalara
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:16 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Defeating a Skyre Army of Doom at 1500 Points (6th Edition)
One thing you might want to consider is taking fewer, larger goblin units.
At 25, instead of needing to kill 5 goblins to force a panic test, it takes 7. At short range, 10 Jezzails have a decent chance to kill 5 by themselves, while 7 would be unusual. Given the amount and quality of the shooting, you'll still be taking panic tests, but the number should be 1-2 lower at all ranges because the Jezzails can't reliably do it by themselves any more.
At 25, instead of needing to kill 5 goblins to force a panic test, it takes 7. At short range, 10 Jezzails have a decent chance to kill 5 by themselves, while 7 would be unusual. Given the amount and quality of the shooting, you'll still be taking panic tests, but the number should be 1-2 lower at all ranges because the Jezzails can't reliably do it by themselves any more.