Beastman Small Point Armies

[PalmerC]

Nice battle report. I have been playing 6th beastmen for awhile (like a year lol...not 20) I have been using the Ravaging Hordes and am just starting to use the 6th army book. Because I play more during the week after work we often play 1000 pts which I think can make list building quite tricky/strategic. Any advice on what you have liked to do in small point games? I have had periods where my lists have done well and times more recently not so much lol.

Some of my Beastmen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5tYQlWCqFQ&t=1s

[Just Tony]

At 1,000 points? Limit yourself to 2 characters and only use magic items as COMPLETELY necessary. Bodies on the table are what will help you there. Most people are tempted to waste points on other slots, but I go Core heavy at that point total. Ambush would probably help out a ton.

[TinyLegions]

I think that splitting this off of the battle report that it was referring to is best as it is a good topic of conversation for the 6th edition.

Concerning small point armies for Beastmen, I like what JT is saying, but I would add another point or two. I am going to assume that you are using a pure Beasts of Chaos army choices and not mixing and matching from the Hordes Book.(Which I am not a personal fan of)

Like what JT said, core units in the Beatmen are upper average, in that they are better than many but not all core line-ups. Exceeding the core minimum is not a bad idea if you can swing it, as it will allow you to build around your core rather than adding more core for the next level. I would start first on your core units and build your list out from there, and I would spend more than half of the points on this portion of your army at a minimum. JT also has it right on the characters. You don't need to max out on characters, and magic items should be used for augmentation as an afterthought rather than a primary choice, which is what characters work for Beastmen. We are not talking about undead armies here.

I would avoid the rare choices at this level, as I think that they work better at larger games given their high point count. Having said that, the special units that you have available are not bad choices, if you go with moderation. Meaning that a minotaur unit might be fine, and another special might be ok, as long as you are economical on these slots.

[Just Tony]

Tiny has very good points here. Choose either a Mino unit or a Centigor unit as a back up. And only go 1 Bestigor unit if you take them at all.

[PalmerC]

Thanks for the comments!

I play a lot against an O&G player who often takes a giant. I only used a chaos giant for the first time yesterday (I do tend to focus on core with the exception of the occasional minotaur or Dragon Ogre unit.) I have found giants particularly hard to deal with as their table seems to consistently give options to wipe out a whole unit (with general in it.) I usually take a shamon but skipped it yesterday.

My list yesterday from memory was-

Wargor 2 handed weapon Hvy armour Undivided

Wargor Banner Hvy armour Undivided

2X Beastheard

15Gor 2 hnd weapon +champion+ standard 15 Ungor
15 Gor 2 hnd weapon +champion+ standard 15 Ungor

17 Bestigor +champion+ standard Mark of Khorne

Chaos Giant

[Just Tony]

Honestly not a bad list. Personally I'd shave the number of Gors down and try to adjust points to at least get a Brayshaman in there. If not for anything than a little help with dispelling and the secret hope that you'll get a saucy spell off.

[Alarantalara]

My first reaction to the list is: why are those beastherds so large? Especially why so many gors?

Gors cost more, and while they're better in close combat, you don't want lots of them. Most close combat phases don't have too many casualties in a single round (it's rare to see more than 10 attacks from a unit and excepting characters, generally less than half that wound). As such, if you're taking enough casualties to need 15 gors to keep up the front line, you've probably lost combat anyway and will be running. So why pay for them? Besides, if you get it exactly right, the ungors can help out if charged or in round 2 with their spears, and they can't do it if there are too many gors in front. Between those two considerations, I don't know that you'd ever want more than 10 (I usually take 7 gors in my biggest units).

Second, beastherds have the additional issue that their rank bonus can't go as high and they do not negate the opponent's rank bonus. This means you need either another unit to get rid of it, reliably inflict more casualties than the opponent, or only use the bestigors against all the large ranked units your opponent has. At 1000 points, your opponent probably has at least 2 large ranked units, which means that the beastherds will be forced into fights where they have a disadvantage.

Removing 5 gors from each unit and replacing them with units of 5 chaos hounds (and a musician for when you run) lets you address both the issues above. You now have flanking units that can solve the rank bonus issue and decisively win fights rather than grind out 1-2 CR margins hoping for a failed leadership test. The total unit strength when both units charge becomes higher, so you'll also outnumber even bigger enemy units than you currently do. You're also not paying for as many gors, so there's a better chance some ungors get to fight if you don't win quickly, improving your odds in later rounds.

[PalmerC]

Thanks for the tips!

This was my first battle using the armybook/beastherds in RH they didnt exist so I am new to the dynamic of mixing Gor's and Ungors together so it's helpful to understand that (reducing Gors.) One thing I did like as an improvement was Gors getting the option for two hand weapons. Not having been able to ambush until now has rendered Chaos Hounds historically for me as almost useless. However now that they can ambush I am guessing that may change opening up rear and flank attacks. I usually take a level two shamon in the last games but just removed this time for the first time. Funny thing for the first time ever against the goblin hordes I actually outnumbered a goblin unit after a round of battle. But I will likely still reduce the size of the beast heards based on the advice.

Any tips on dealing with giants? Am I the only one that finds them to be a wildcard that can almost take out anything? Given the leadership of beastmen I lost two units and a general to two roles on the giant table where they shout cause a leadership test and if failed automatically win combat. Also have had generals easily stuffed in the bag while in a unit.

[Alarantalara]

There are a few decent options for dealing with giants.

One is chaos hounds (or very small beastherds). They'll lose, but they're so cheap that it's worth running them up at an angle and forcing the giant to move around them really slowly or end up facing away from more important units. This works best if you can keep your other units far enough away to avoid cascading panic tests. The extra speed hounds have helps here. Chaos spawn don't work well for this despite being cheap because of the loss of control from random movement, though being unbreakable and a high toughness helps a bit.

Minotaurs, in addition to being able to inflict reasonable numbers of wounds if equipped with a great weapon are also very resistant to giant attacks: their leadership makes yell and bawl less scary, their initiative lets them avoid most thump with club attacks (and can't take more than 3 wounds anyway because they don't carry over) and 'eadbutt doesn't do enough damage to stop them. If they get the charge, they'll probably kill it eventually (if they're charged, the great weapons striking last might not do enough damage in time). Dragon ogres are not a substitute—their initiative is too low.

Another option is Slaanesh magic. Almost all the spells are useful against giants. Be careful with positioning if using the missile spell since you have to stay out of the front arc or have interposing units/terrain to slow the giant down (units work because the giant is a large target). Other spell lores can also work but tend to be less universally applicable or need more luck.

Your own giant is an option, but is really random-not ideal given the cost.

Dragon ogres, bestigors with the mark of Khorne, and a pair of chariots all have a chance to kill a giant on the charge, but the odds are less than ideal as they all only do about 4-5 wounds on average and you need 6. Worth remembering if it got hurt by something else first though.

At 1000 points, you can sometimes avoid fighting a giant entirely. There are few enough units and beastherds, chaos hounds, centigors and dragon ogres are all faster or more maneuverable than the giant such that you might get away with just being elsewhere. Beastherds are especially nice here with not being slowed down by difficult terrain. Given the speed of giants, you need to be able to quickly win any close combat you do get into though, which typically requires flank charges and negating rank bonuses again.

If your opponent has night goblins with fanatics, you might also try putting a cheap sacrificial unit between them and the giant to see if you can use your opponents' army against it.

If you branch out a bit, daemons are a bit expensive, but avoid issues with terror and running, as well as getting a save, making combat a bit more even. You might still lose, but it will at least take longer.

[PalmerC]

Great suggestions/write up definitely some stuff to think about. Rightly or wrongly we have been playing 1000 pt games on a 4x4 mat. Which makes it a bit hard to avoid fast units but definitely can tie up with hounds etc as you mentioned. I wondered about the spawn it’s one of the only units I do not own. All of my stuff is metal between 1988-2000 era basically so I haven’t found spawn at a price I wanted to buy yet lol…

Appreciate the pointers will definitely consider them.

[Kakapo42]

Small point Beastmen armies eh? Well..

In the Royal Annals of Quenelles, it is noted of that most loathsome scourge of Men known as Belphegor, that the monster's earliest victories were usually fought and won with a small band of warriors. Poetic Troubadour accounts of the Sack of Beatrice-en-Brienne describe their composition thusly:

Belphegor, Wargor with Mark of Chaos Undivided, Brayhorn, Shield, Slaughterer's Blade and Chaos Armour (General)

Wargor Battle Standard Bearer with Heavy Armour and Preyseeker

Beast Herd - 15 Gors with hand weapons and shields, 10 Ungors with spears and shields, Full Command

Beast Herd - 15 Gors with two hand weapons, 10 Ungors with spears and shields, Full Command

20 Bestigors with Full Command, Mark of Chaos Undivided and Vitriolic Totem

10 Warhounds of Chaos

1 Bound Captive Mayor's Maiden Daughter

(Precisely One Thousand-score points of ill repute on the mark, and not one point less)

Those rare few scholars outside Athel Loren who have been permitted the privilege of studying the secret archives of the Meadows Of Heaven note that this force is consistent with the remnants and stragglers that managed to survive the cataclysmic battle fought in the Meadows of Heaven on the eve of the cursed Cyanathair's defeat, and subsequently escaped the forest and the vengeful Wood Elves hunting them. It is believed that Belphegor belonged to the same much larger warband as these stragglers, and managed to rally them and assume command after their previous warlord was killed fighting the elves. The archives of the Meadows Of Heaven also mention at least one band of Centigors escaping destruction, but these are not recorded in many surviving accounts of Belphegor's early conquests. It is believed that they were either used to raid targets deep behind opposing lines independently, or that those attacks where they were present left no survivors to tell of them.

This army is believed to be the core of Belphegor's hordes, and served him well in his quest across Bretonnia to locate and claim the mythical Dark Heart of Chaos, which was evidently successful. The Imperial Reikenkronikle notes that when Belphegor emerged to wreak havoc in The Empire he was accompanied by a force of Beastmen consistent with the above description, though this quickly grew to assimilate other Beastmen herds into its fold.

There are no recorded accounts of Belphegor's herds ever encountering Giants in this early period, save numerous mentions of large monsters perishing from lack of food and supplies after the baggage trains accompanying them were destroyed by a Centigor herd long before battle was ever joined. If such encounters did happen however, it can be assumed that the envenomed great weapons of the Bestigors doubtless made short work of any large monsters they faced.

There are numerous lessons that can be learned from this. The wisest one of all is that every army is a product shaped by its history. Units and items do not merely spring out of thin air, they must be assembled and maintained with a purpose, and are dictated by their heritage more than anything. Thus when fashioning an unstoppable army you must always consider first and foremost the history and the heritage behind it.

The second greatest wisdom to be gleaned is that when concerning Beast Herds in particular you always want to have more Gors than Ungors in them. This is because if a Beast Herd has too many Ungors in it then the herd's veneer of discipline will collapse and the herd will either destroy itself in infighting or worse, revolt and turn against you before the game even starts. Ungors are weak and having more of them in Beast herds is a sure sign of weakness that will spell your death warrant if you tolerate it. You always need to have more Gors in your Beast Herds in order to properly police and dominate the Ungors and keep them in their place at the bottom of the herd. Countless other Beastmen warlords tried to trust in superior numbers of Ungors only to end up spitted and eaten alive by their underlings when those same Ungors rose up against them unchecked, but not once did this ever happen to Belphegor who was always careful to cull and decimate his Ungors whenever they threatened to grow too unruly.

Finally, a wise lord is never miserly. The meager personal savings in gold that can be gleaned from skimping on wargear and magic items are invariably offset in other far more disastrous ways in the long term, and there is always something you can spend those last points on. Belphegor was always careful to capture the most prized maiden of every village and settlement he conquered, and not only did this grant him and his warherd tremendous renown, the constant stream of knights and heroes seeking to rescue those maidens provided his warherd with a constant supply of common enemies to unite around, removing a lot of dissention amongst his forces. Even if you aren't able or inclined to invest in capturing maidens, a steady supply of extra meat and loot for your warriors will go a long way to securing their loyalty and will mean less challenges for leadership for you to worry about.

[Just Tony]

I'm not on board with the concept of having 15 Gors in a herd. I get that Ungors are dirt cheap and will be the arrow sponges for the unit, but they ALSO attack from the second rank, which Gors cannot do. I go with 6 Gors as that gets all of them in base with a 5 frontage and from there will be backed by however many Ungors survive to that point.

[Alarantalara]

Belphegor who was always careful to cull and decimate his Ungors whenever they threatened to grow too unruly.

Belphegor was a weakling and coward. The weak are always naturally more numerous than the strong. The truly strong fear no horde and dominate the herd even there is one of them and 100 of the weak. By culling them to reduce their numbers he may have gotten only the best of the ungors, but he also demonstrated his fear. Urtaz knows that one gor is more than a match for 2 ungors and thus no more than that are needed to keep them in line. If Belphagor disagrees, Urtaz will show him his error and use his skull for a cup to finish the demonstration.

Since we seem to be trading lists, I usually take something vaguely like this:

Wargor with great weapon, heavy armour
Level 2 Bray-shaman with staff of darkoth

6 gors with 2 hand weapons, 14 ungors, full command
7 gors with 2 hand weapons, 14 ungors, full command
6 warhounds of chaos
5 warhounds of chaos
5 gors with 2 hand weapons, 10 ungors
5 gors with 2 hand weapons, 10 ungors
chariot
chariot

3 minotaurs with great weapons, mark of chaos undivided

I really like ambushing. However, I try to get ambushing units where I want via sheer number of units rather than trying to have good leadership, thus the herds without foe-renders.

As for the lack of a battle standard—"Urtaz doesn't fear losing a fight. If those under me are too weak to crush their foes, I didn't want them anyway."

[PalmerC]

Small point Beastmen armies eh? Well..

In the Royal Annals of Quenelles, it is noted of that most loathsome scourge of Men known as Belphegor, that the monster's earliest victories were usually fought and won with a small band of warriors. Poetic Troubadour accounts of the Sack of Beatrice-en-Brienne describe their composition thusly:

Belphegor, Wargor with Mark of Chaos Undivided, Brayhorn, Shield, Slaughterer's Blade and Chaos Armour (General)

Wargor Battle Standard Bearer with Heavy Armour and Preyseeker

Beast Herd - 15 Gors with hand weapons and shields, 10 Ungors with spears and shields, Full Command

Beast Herd - 15 Gors with two hand weapons, 10 Ungors with spears and shields, Full Command

20 Bestigors with Full Command, Mark of Chaos Undivided and Vitriolic Totem

10 Warhounds of Chaos

1 Bound Captive Mayor's Maiden Daughter

(Precisely One Thousand-score points of ill repute on the mark, and not one point less)

Those rare few scholars outside Athel Loren who have been permitted the privilege of studying the secret archives of the Meadows Of Heaven note that this force is consistent with the remnants and stragglers that managed to survive the cataclysmic battle fought in the Meadows of Heaven on the eve of the cursed Cyanathair's defeat, and subsequently escaped the forest and the vengeful Wood Elves hunting them. It is believed that Belphegor belonged to the same much larger warband as these stragglers, and managed to rally them and assume command after their previous warlord was killed fighting the elves. The archives of the Meadows Of Heaven also mention at least one band of Centigors escaping destruction, but these are not recorded in many surviving accounts of Belphegor's early conquests. It is believed that they were either used to raid targets deep behind opposing lines independently, or that those attacks where they were present left no survivors to tell of them.

This army is believed to be the core of Belphegor's hordes, and served him well in his quest across Bretonnia to locate and claim the mythical Dark Heart of Chaos, which was evidently successful. The Imperial Reikenkronikle notes that when Belphegor emerged to wreak havoc in The Empire he was accompanied by a force of Beastmen consistent with the above description, though this quickly grew to assimilate other Beastmen herds into its fold.

There are no recorded accounts of Belphegor's herds ever encountering Giants in this early period, save numerous mentions of large monsters perishing from lack of food and supplies after the baggage trains accompanying them were destroyed by a Centigor herd long before battle was ever joined. If such encounters did happen however, it can be assumed that the envenomed great weapons of the Bestigors doubtless made short work of any large monsters they faced.

There are numerous lessons that can be learned from this. The wisest one of all is that every army is a product shaped by its history. Units and items do not merely spring out of thin air, they must be assembled and maintained with a purpose, and are dictated by their heritage more than anything. Thus when fashioning an unstoppable army you must always consider first and foremost the history and the heritage behind it.

The second greatest wisdom to be gleaned is that when concerning Beast Herds in particular you always want to have more Gors than Ungors in them. This is because if a Beast Herd has too many Ungors in it then the herd's veneer of discipline will collapse and the herd will either destroy itself in infighting or worse, revolt and turn against you before the game even starts. Ungors are weak and having more of them in Beast herds is a sure sign of weakness that will spell your death warrant if you tolerate it. You always need to have more Gors in your Beast Herds in order to properly police and dominate the Ungors and keep them in their place at the bottom of the herd. Countless other Beastmen warlords tried to trust in superior numbers of Ungors only to end up spitted and eaten alive by their underlings when those same Ungors rose up against them unchecked, but not once did this ever happen to Belphegor who was always careful to cull and decimate his Ungors whenever they threatened to grow too unruly.

Finally, a wise lord is never miserly. The meager personal savings in gold that can be gleaned from skimping on wargear and magic items are invariably offset in other far more disastrous ways in the long term, and there is always something you can spend those last points on. Belphegor was always careful to capture the most prized maiden of every village and settlement he conquered, and not only did this grant him and his warherd tremendous renown, the constant stream of knights and heroes seeking to rescue those maidens provided his warherd with a constant supply of common enemies to unite around, removing a lot of dissention amongst his forces. Even if you aren't able or inclined to invest in capturing maidens, a steady supply of extra meat and loot for your warriors will go a long way to securing their loyalty and will mean less challenges for leadership for you to worry about.

Thank you for the list and rationale from the Royal Annals of Quenelles : D

[PalmerC]

Belphegor who was always careful to cull and decimate his Ungors whenever they threatened to grow too unruly.

Belphegor was a weakling and coward. The weak are always naturally more numerous than the strong. The truly strong fear no horde and dominate the herd even there is one of them and 100 of the weak. By culling them to reduce their numbers he may have gotten only the best of the ungors, but he also demonstrated his fear. Urtaz knows that one gor is more than a match for 2 ungors and thus no more than that are needed to keep them in line. If Belphagor disagrees, Urtaz will show him his error and use his skull for a cup to finish the demonstration.

Since we seem to be trading lists, I usually take something vaguely like this:

Wargor with great weapon, heavy armour
Level 2 Bray-shaman with staff of darkoth

6 gors with 2 hand weapons, 14 ungors, full command
7 gors with 2 hand weapons, 14 ungors, full command
6 warhounds of chaos
5 warhounds of chaos
5 gors with 2 hand weapons, 10 ungors
5 gors with 2 hand weapons, 10 ungors
chariot
chariot

3 minotaurs with great weapons, mark of chaos undivided

I really like ambushing. However, I try to get ambushing units where I want via sheer number of units rather than trying to have good leadership, thus the herds without foe-renders.

As for the lack of a battle standard—"Urtaz doesn't fear losing a fight. If those under me are too weak to crush their foes, I didn't want them anyway."

Thats an interesting take. Seems like a bit of a beastmen swarm.

[Kakapo42]

Belphegor who was always careful to cull and decimate his Ungors whenever they threatened to grow too unruly.

Belphegor was a weakling and coward. The weak are always naturally more numerous than the strong. The truly strong fear no horde and dominate the herd even there is one of them and 100 of the weak. By culling them to reduce their numbers he may have gotten only the best of the ungors, but he also demonstrated his fear. Urtaz knows that one gor is more than a match for 2 ungors and thus no more than that are needed to keep them in line. If Belphagor disagrees, Urtaz will show him his error and use his skull for a cup to finish the demonstration.

...

As for the lack of a battle standard—"Urtaz doesn't fear losing a fight. If those under me are too weak to crush their foes, I didn't want them anyway."

Greater warlords than Urtaz have tried to prove Belphegor's error. Their skulls now adorn herdstones from Laurelorn to the Drakwald to Arden and Chalons, and all the lands in between. Like Urtaz, they too mistook cunning for fear, and arrogance for bravery.

In nature the strong always outnumber the weak, because natural order is survival of the fittest. It is only unnatural weak smoothskin civilisation that allows the weak to grow more numerous than the strong, by holding the predators back and letting the prey thrive. Belphegor knows this, but Belphegor knows also that true strength is not given, but taken. True strength must be seized, earned and fought for constantly. The truly strong do not rest on their birthright, but constantly fight and hone their strength, and Truegor cannot do that if they are constantly nursing masses of feeble Ungor.

Keeping the Ungor numbers low means more Gor are free to test their mettle against worthier foes, ensuring that in battle the prey must face the best of the Gors in plentiful numbers. It also means the Gor can keep constant watch on the Ungor, for their natural instinct is to resort to underhanded tactics to steal power from the strong.

There is a very good reason why Belphegor has been a constant scourge of the lands of men for over 3000 years now.

It would please Belphegor to glut on the blood of this Urtaz, but Belphegor is also cunning enough to know he can simply wait for them to have their throat cut in their sleep along with their Gor by masses of spiteful Ungor, or wait for their lost and wandering herds to grow hungry in a long dark winter. then offer those herds all the red meat and plunder they can gorge on and show how trustworthy a starving beast can be. So long as Urtaz continues to be so arrogant, Belphegor need not face him at all, for he is is own worst enemy.

Thank you for the list and rationale from the Royal Annals of Quenelles : D

No worries study the annals well (and also the Imperial Reikenkronikle), and remember that even a Beastman warlord is a statesman as well as a general.

(Oh and also that only you have the final say on what you want your hordes to look like)