Dwarfs 2000 pts.

[Thoric]

Hello, guys!

We are scheduling a little tournment among friends, in february. I am planning to use my dear old tested, list that my friends hate. Not because they think it's cheesy, but because they say is "incurably dwarvish".

THE DWARFS ARMY OF LORD THORIC

Dwarf Lord
hand weapon, gromril armour & shield
Rune of Cleaving (x2), Rune of Fury
Rune of Stone, Master Rune of Spite

Battle Standard Bearer
hand weapon, heavy armour
Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Resistance

Runesmith
hand weapon, gromril armour & shield
Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Spellbreaking

23 Ironbreakers
hand weapon, gromril armour & shield
Full Command
Rune of Courage

24 Dwarf Warriors
hand weapon, heavy armour & shield
Full Command

25 Dwarf Warriors
hand weapon, heavy armour & shield
Full Command

10 Thunderers
dwarf handgun, light armour & shield

10 Thunderers
dwarf handgun, light armour & shield

Cannon
Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning

Cannon
Rune of Forging


Total: 1999 pts.

[Just Tony]

The only criticisms I could possibly have on this list is where it conflicts with my personal taste, so we'll go ahead and say that the list looks good from that standpoint.


Now as far as what conflicts with my personal opinions? I immediately see a shortage of actual regiments on the board. That would give me pause if I was facing anything with a lot of numbers. My second thought is that I very rarely if ever run a battle standard bearer without a magic standard. It seems like a waste to not utilize that, especially when you have standards that have an area effect or can really put the kabosh on someone's damage output, or psychology, etc.

[Thoric]

Hello, Tony!
I had bad experiences with BSB with runic standards. They were just the days of the begin of 6th edition. And I was experimenting in the search of the optimal list. When I used BSBs without personal protection items, they always became a magnete for enemy attacks in close combat and ended killed.

[TinyLegions]

Not a bad list. Kind of with JT, I do a few things different in personal taste. Normally I don't go Lord level in a 2K point game, but this one is not bad, and I kind of like the loadout on it. I see that you did the "Thank" loadout on your BSB, and I rarely ever put runes on the standard myself, so I am ok with that. I usually bring either a Thane of Pane or Lord of Pane tuned up more, but characterwise it is ok.

I have a few criticisms, and one is with the Runesmith, but that is based on the answer to this question. Where do you plan on deploying the Runesmith? If he is going into a combat unit, then I would kit him out to make him more survivable, personally. If he is hanging with the artillery, then no big deal. Personally, I would rather take an organ gun than two cannons, but your call. Similarly taking a pair of bolt throwers is another load out that I tend to favor, and put at least one with a +1ST rune on it. Once again your call. People's inventory are not the same.

[Alarantalara]

This is interesting in that it's very different from the Dwarf lists I usually play against.

Looking at it, I imagine that it tries to stay in a compact blob to gain the reroll using the lord's leadership as much as possible (does everything fit?) and thus win through attrition once in melee range. With the unit sizes and number of characters, I imagine that two are in the ironbreaker unit and one is in the first warrior unit.

I do wonder how you plan on handling armies with very large numbers of units (not models) since it seems like you'd be inviting some sort of flank attack and if you don't move to anchor yourself, then the wide thunderer lines provide obvious targets to try for a breakthrough.

Similarly, what is your plan for armies that aren't interested in engaging you? Here I'm thinking Dwarf and Empire armies with more missiles (I've encountered a few lists with 50% more shooting than yours) as well as any of the armies that like to harass the opponent without actually closing (skinks, wood elves, some magic heavy armies).

Speaking of magic heavy armies, they're probably the best reason to consider more and smaller dwarf units. There are a few spells that hit every model in a unit and big elite units are very tempting targets since you can nearly cripple your opponent with a single successful spell.
For instance, consider the second unit from the bottom here:

Screenshot 2023-01-16 at 10.12.14 PM.jpg (468.75 KiB) Viewed 6355 times

That was the result of a single casting of Black Horror against a unit of warriors and was a major factor* in the defeat of the Dwarfs in that game (crippled unit and the bottom unit now effectively isolated because it's lost its support). Making the unit bigger, as you have, just exacerbates the problem since the total casualties go up while providing less of a margin for recovery with other units.

* The other major factor was a failed terror test removing a second unit from the battle line at the critical point.

[Thoric]

Not a bad list. Kind of with JT, I do a few things different in personal taste. Normally I don't go Lord level in a 2K point game, but this one is not bad, and I kind of like the loadout on it. I see that you did the "Thank" loadout on your BSB, and I rarely ever put runes on the standard myself, so I am ok with that. I usually bring either a Thane of Pane or Lord of Pane tuned up more, but characterwise it is ok.

I have a few criticisms, and one is with the Runesmith, but that is based on the answer to this question. Where do you plan on deploying the Runesmith? If he is going into a combat unit, then I would kit him out to make him more survivable, personally. If he is hanging with the artillery, then no big deal. Personally, I would rather take an organ gun than two cannons, but your call. Similarly taking a pair of bolt throwers is another load out that I tend to favor, and put at least one with a +1ST rune on it. Once again your call. People's inventory are not the same.

Hello, TL!

I am very tradionalist ( a true dwarf is supposed to be ), so the Runesmith join the 24 Warriors regiment, while the General and the BSB join the Ironbreakers. In the past I tried another configuration for the Runesmith (Rune of Stone on the armour and a talisman with two Runes of Spellbreaking) but by necessity I have to allocate most of the runic allowance on anti-magic stuff. When I didn't, I always found myself overpowered in the magic phase. In general the Runesmith is in danger only when his regiment is approached by an enemy unit with a powerful character inside. In the past, sometimes, my opponents tried to allocate on him the attacks of rank and file troops, but with poor results and this reduced the number of casualties among my Warriors leading him to lose or at least not winning the combat.

[Thoric]

This is interesting in that it's very different from the Dwarf lists I usually play against.

Looking at it, I imagine that it tries to stay in a compact blob to gain the reroll using the lord's leadership as much as possible (does everything fit?) and thus win through attrition once in melee range. With the unit sizes and number of characters, I imagine that two are in the ironbreaker unit and one is in the first warrior unit.

I do wonder how you plan on handling armies with very large numbers of units (not models) since it seems like you'd be inviting some sort of flank attack and if you don't move to anchor yourself, then the wide thunderer lines provide obvious targets to try for a breakthrough.

Similarly, what is your plan for armies that aren't interested in engaging you? Here I'm thinking Dwarf and Empire armies with more missiles (I've encountered a few lists with 50% more shooting than yours) as well as any of the armies that like to harass the opponent without actually closing (skinks, wood elves, some magic heavy armies).

Speaking of magic heavy armies, they're probably the best reason to consider more and smaller dwarf units. There are a few spells that hit every model in a unit and big elite units are very tempting targets since you can nearly cripple your opponent with a single successful spell.
For instance, consider the second unit from the bottom here:
Screenshot 2023-01-16 at 10.12.14 PM.jpg
That was the result of a single casting of Black Horror against a unit of warriors and was a major factor* in the defeat of the Dwarfs in that game (crippled unit and the bottom unit now effectively isolated because it's lost its support). Making the unit bigger, as you have, just exacerbates the problem since the total casualties go up while providing less of a margin for recovery with other units.

* The other major factor was a failed terror test removing a second unit from the battle line at the critical point.

Hello Alarantalara (nice nick, am I wrong or it sounds elvish?)

You are absolutely right. Magic heavy armies are terrible. That's why I use that configuration for the Runesmith. Normally I try to prevent my opponent from casting such devastating spells. Than, much depends if the Gods of Warhammer are with you or not in that day. In my experience the only shooting army really dangerous is Skaven. That's a real pest! The Empire on the long run always see its warmachines explode!
I deploy always with the "refused flank". I protect my sides with a terrain features and one table edge, or (if there is not a suitable terrain element) using two table edges (diagonally in a corner of the table). In general, if an army has many units I found that only one is really a threat for my units. If he choose to not engage me (it happened) the game invariably ends in a draw.

[Just Tony]

I'd be horrified if my entire 2,000 point army fit in 1/3 or less of my deployment zone frontage. I also stiffened a bit when you said you use a table edge as a flank refuser. That seems to dare the dice gods to have you fail a break test

[Thoric]

I'd be horrified if my entire 2,000 point army fit in 1/3 or less of my deployment zone frontage. I also stiffened a bit when you said you use a table edge as a flank refuser. That seems to dare the dice gods to have you fail a break test

That's the only way a traditional dwarfs army can fix its typical weakness: slowness. It is an handicap only if you have to go somewhere. I basically do not move if not for countercharge.

[Just Tony]

This is the exact moment where I wish all of the old post and battle reports were still up here, because I had several battle reports where we had large dwarf armies with multiple bodies on the ground and were able to move and successfully Engage The Enemy

[Alarantalara]

Hello Alarantalara (nice nick, am I wrong or it sounds elvish?)

Not elvish, but not obvious either. In the Fighting Fantasy gamebook, "The Crown of Kings" (by Steve Jackson, one of the GW founders, so it's sort of relevant), there are a series of Throben Doors that you have to figure out how to pass through. One of the doors needs the password, "Alaralatanalara". At one point, I decided to use it, but remembered it incorrectly and ended up with this. And then I just kept using it.

I protect my sides with a terrain features and one table edge, or (if there is not a suitable terrain element) using two table edges (diagonally in a corner of the table).

I basically do not move if not for countercharge.

How does that work? Of the five scenarios suggested for equal size forces, only two of them let you deploy against a side table edge and of those two, one requires you move forward. For that matter, if it's Pitched Battle and you stay in a corner, doesn't that give up 300 points on its own, enough for your opponent to get a minor victory without doing anything other than moving a unit into the one table quarter you're in at the end of the game and not dying (an admittedly boring approach to playing)? I'm having a hard time reconciling the idea of not moving with my belief that you have to be at least able to occupy the centre of the table in some survivable fashion.

I guess part of my confusion is that I've played against the dwarfs from the photos enough that they nearly always take at least one gyrocopter every game now; the ability to deal with fast cavalry is just too valuable. And while anchoring flanks helps, the need to move I mentioned above usually means there's some opportunity.