Classichammer

Right, I want to get this one logged in as early as possible...



I'm rooting for another increase in turn out compared to the previous day. It'd be nice if it was a trend.

Looking forward to Game day! See you there.

Awesome, see you there!


I'm fairly sure only those of us that were there last month will be there THIS month. For some reason the 6th Ed Facebook group had been down for quite some time, and I haven't been on to check to see if it's been up.

I just got late confirmation Thursday night that my work schedule got cleared for Sunday (tomorrow), so I've got the green light.

In unrelated news- hobby alert: [strikethrough] not all poster tacks are created equal. I used this Art Skills branded stuff here and there to hold painting bases to corks etc. for some time, but I had Asarnil's dragon's feet stuck on a base for priming and it sat for about a week. Went to finish priming today and noticed it was attacking the plastic pretty well... made it soft to 1/16" penetration. Stick to the branded Blu*Tac and/or maybe test similar products for longer exposure times I guess. [/strikethrough]

Unrelated 2- The Giants of Albion that went on a ride to customs in Germany is finally back in the UK after a month of no tracking updates, so they may make it after all. Isn't international shipping fun? I have an extra set of Giants now possibly for trade

Edit: I think some liquid plastic cement leaked from the joint and soaked through the putty after some more thought. Disregard the above poster tack musing.

I was in a bit of a rush getting out of the house and only brought my Skaven for the event instead of the masses of extra armies I usually bring. I may wind up regretting that. Worst case? Someone runs my rats and I "officiate" the event along with pictures...

So we only had four people show due to life issues: Ashley, Bret, John, and me. Ashley's Lizardmen tabled Bret's Dogs of War while my Skaven received a sound thrashing from John's Orcs and Goblins. We're already picking the day for next month's event.

Some funny musings on the battle report:

* just by a quirk of how rules work, a unit of halflings on a hill gets a high-ground bonus against large targets! (In this instance it was lizardmen and a giant) -just one of those rules things --like poison affecting a gyrocopter

* I reviewed the flank/rear charging rules since I realized I didn't remember them during the game and the rulebook does a pretty good job, but it still leaves me having to make some assumptions when it comes to incomplete ranks in the back. I cross-referenced this with the same section in Warhammer Armies Project since this aspect should theoretically be the same (no changes in this procedure between games). Diagrams from both always show a unit with complete rear ranks. So how is this figured when the rear ranks are incomplete? With larger base sizes like 40mm monstrous troops, it can certainly make a difference. Here's what 6th gives us: ***apparently there were extra diagrams in the appendix, but my digital copy ends on page 238 and doesn't have them...
So my first assumption is:

1. The lines delineating the zones for a unit's front, flanks, and rear emanate from the corners of the rear rank models. Is this a correct assumption? It could matter from which side you remove casualties in that case.
1. a. If a model or two in the back rank were sitting in the middle, should they be slid to one of the edges?
1. b. You would slide them over to fight the flanker, so you slide them over to determine the zone line?
1. c. Because of this unspecificity, should the zone lines be taken from the last complete rank instead?

Here's a diagram that models the situation that came up during Ashley & I's match. I'm not claiming this is accurate in any way: It's just an example created specifically to address questions I have. Repeat: This does not reflect the true positions of the units that day. It was probably played accurately and I don't remember the precise position of the models anyway and it wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome at that point at all- I was going off of the dragon's arc of sight to determine which zone it came in on which is incorrect, and also was confused about pivoting and wheeling. However, in refreshing my understanding of the correct procedure, some questions still lingered that I thought warranted discussion with the group. 2. This is how I'd mark the zones for the unit being charged per my assumption above, which, since the rules are vague is still questionable.
2. a. See how shifting those back-rank models to the right adjusts the zone line. Imagine with Ogres. The rules are silent on this aspect.

3. By the rulebook examples (and notice the book examples are all units of multiple infantry --not large individual models, and all oddly perfectly perpendicular to the zone lines ) the dragon's front edge is mostly in the rear quadrant of the unit, but the majority of the base itself for a single model is in the flank. Because of this, I had it in my head that the flyer first pivots on its center point (perpendicular to the zone line sort of like the examples in the book since they can pivot for free), and then moves forward until it contacts the unit, then "closes the door". A version of this is what had my questioning procedural, and I admittedly don't know where the base was precisely now, but for the sake of getting me up to speed, I thought it would make for an interesting topic.
3. a. Since the dragon model in question has an unconventional base size for stability going off its center point is pretty much mandatory. I'm also wondering how you determine its visibility arc since its base is double-wide from the standard (4x footprint?). Might have to insert a 50mm shim off the front or use paint to determine its LOS points. I have to do that on my Necromunda round bases.

4. This point deals with the lone character model to the right of the unit and how it is dealt with if it comes into contention. Even though the dragon can see the larger unit behind the character and can "fly over" the character to get to the unit if the charger is assumed to have the majority of its base in the flank, can it displace the character model if its base overlaps it? Or is it required to charge into the character model instead and then overrun if it successfully eliminates the character? I'm keeping in consideration the base size the dragon would normally have: i.e. - it wouldn't fit either way.

5. Assumption final destination station: In the charge declaration phase if the unit was declared as the target, then determined to be in the flank, and can not make contact with the declared target due to a character (or intervening terrain) in the way so that it would be hit first, does that count as a failed charge OR just an unintended redirected charge into the character? (I'm assuming if it was impassible terrain like a flag post or something that for sure causes the charge to fail).
5. a. Even though flyers can pass over impassible terrain (tar pit, tall obelisk), their base would still have to fit without overlapping that terrain.
5. b. Etherial models would be able to ignore this rule and hover over the tarpit or keep off similarly to the halflings getting high-ground advantage against a giant ( a rule's a rule). Terrain issues can be brought up before a match (if you can think of them), just fun to muse on the most favored interpretations (the one that favors my army that day! )

Finally, one of the books (6th or WAP --can't remember off the top of my head) suggests a roll-off (as per usual) when an agreement is contested. I just like the precision of rank and flank games and wonder how to handle these corner cases. Hopefully, you all enjoy these types of rules discussions.

That's all I got for now except that I found out when I got home on the 19th that the in-laws planned the Christmas get-together on the 17th of December I was granted a pass, but will play fair and go to that one. Will have to catch you all in January. Have a great Thanksgiving everyone. I'm gonna get some painting done and post some pics.

There's a bit more commentary that might help:
https://6th.whfb.app/rules-commentary/multiple-targets
https://6th.whfb.app/rules-commentary/c ... plete-rank

This answers some of your questions:
1/2. Slide to the middle if on the edge when not in combat, slide to the engaged edge when in combat. They're floaty.

I've always envisioned a ranked unit as having the corners of its bounding box. Just treat the incomplete rank as complete. It aligns nicely with the generosity principle related to charging since it creates more flank charges (generous to the target) and avoids weird things like I removed the model in the last rank from that side so you'll fail the charge by <1 base width (generous in allowing the charger to succeed in the charge). I don't know of any formal ruling for this part though.

3 Just use the base it's on for visibility. If it's a square base, a reduced size square with the same centre will have the same visibility arcs as a bigger one, so it doesn't matter anyway. If it's not square and you want to be super strict about it, just mark the largest possible square on the base and use that. Practically, you only get an advantage if the base is wider than it's long, so it probably doesn't matter.

Generally, a larger base is a disadvantage if anything. It's easier to hit with a cannon, more enemy models can fight back, etc. Without knowing you ahead of time, I'd probably be suspicious of your motivations if you placed marks on the base to represent the smaller size and tried to use them.

4 You can't land on top of other models. If there's no space, you can't do that move. That said, you should be able to charge the flank on the near side of the unit in the diagram (just slide the target models over and there's a bit of space). That lone character, if it is facing your dragon at the end of the move, then moves the last fraction of an inch and charges you automatically on your turn (appendix five).

Also, since you can fly, turn in place to aim for the larger space on the far side of the intervening unit, then wheel to align once you're there. This is preferable since it maximizes the number of models in combat. This assumes you're close enough to reach the far side of course.

Ahhh! Yes, this does answer many of my questions --thanks for the reply!

There's a bit more commentary that might help:
https://6th.whfb.app/rules-commentary/multiple-targets
https://6th.whfb.app/rules-commentary/c ... plete-rank

Awww-- Sweet. Yes, those were the diagrams I was missing in my digital bootleg of the 6th Edition rulebook. That does clarify some things.

So the sliding of the miniatures over or at least considering the square full concerning incomplete ranks removes any confusion as to where the flank and rear zones are. Cool. Non issue now.

3 (on 90° vision arcs lines of squares and rectangles). This one's kind of tricky. I agree that the 45° visibility lines off of each corner stay the same regardless of the size of the base... -no matter the size, the vision arcs would be the same. Like this: But since movement and the charge are measured off the front of the base, the position the actual base** would occupy in that instance throws a LOS arc a bit offset. Like this: [also the pivot point is forward if this method was the du jure standard AND, importantly, this new center would put the model in the rear zone in the example I first drew out, but I don't think it's de facto played this way] [/b]

**But this turns out to be the offending concept that I'd mistakenly brought into the game unwittingly.
My first wargame was Mustangs and Messerschmitts. The hitbox of the plane you are piloting is marked on the top of the wheeled flight stand so I guess I carried over this artifact from early experiences of abstractions for when a larger base is used for stability. I held the concept of the painted LOS lines to represent where the "actual legal base"** is in relation to the "practical base". I'd considered it a courtesy - never considered it could be taken as gamist. The opposite was the intent, but I get it now: If an alternate base size is the new de facto base in all regards then I was looking at it from this flawed perspective. I'd always considered the "correct" base to "be present" or exist within the rebased footprint and give my opponent the benefit of the doubt as long as it was marked on the base. When done correctly there is no need to play at a disadvantage just because GW overhangs their bases with way too much model. I am basing mine on a 50x100, so the front width of the base is true to the original. Oathmark uses the 50x100 basing convention, as well as the upcoming Warhammer: The Old World. So in games of 6th marking 50mm from the front is bad form: use the whole 100mm as the new flank size. Got it.

Also, since you can fly, turn in place to aim for the larger space on the far side of the intervening unit, then wheel to align once you're there. This is preferable since it maximizes the number of models in combat. This assumes you're close enough to reach the far side of course.

Wasn't possible due to 10 skinks being in that position and having poisoned the giant down to a single wound, the giant yelled and bawled about it for a round but the skinks didn't care, then they toppled the giant on their phase and he fell forward mushing a few. And as you can see the character in the example was facing away from the dragon and wouldn't have wanted anything to do with charging in. So besides my old experiences with Mustangs and Messerschmitts altering my perception of abstracting the position of the base, I had been playing a lot of Babalyon 5 Wars: Kitchen Sink Edition. So my liquid cement fumigated brain was treating the dragon's LOS as firing arcs to determine which "shield" the charge was coming in on for the target... "but direct fire weapons come in on the shield arc the opposing ship occupies at the time they were launched at the start of the turn"... brain fog... meltdown.

So, thank you for patiently guiding me on track. It helped me get my bearings. Hopefully, it makes for an interesting discussion. Now if someone has any suggestions for Dog's of War counters to scout skink hunters & chameleons with blowdarts, I'm all ears. They're really good for the points. Dwarf forums grumble their Organ Gun the answer. We don't have that style of artillery and haven't seen Leonardo de Miragliano since he traveled north with his Steam Tank designs. Back in the day, I eased into playing Empire for a Helblaster, etc., and bringing DoW pikes as auxiliaries. That's how I ended up selling off non-empire-themed DoW units (Manflayers, Wolfboys, redundant duellists, points-hogging slayer pirates when Flagellants served as well, etc.). As a DoW purist for now I'm relearning the ropes all over again with listbuilding, deployment, match-ups...

Radii Bokha wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:20 am **But this turns out to be the offending concept that I'd mistakenly brought into the game unwittingly.
My first wargame was Mustangs and Messerschmitts. The hitbox of the plane you are piloting is marked on the top of the wheeled flight stand so I guess I carried over this artifact from early experiences of abstractions for when a larger base is used for stability.

That looks amazing. I've never heard of the game before, but now I want to watch one.

So, thank you for patiently guiding me on track. It helped me get my bearings. Hopefully, it makes for an interesting discussion. Now if someone has any suggestions for Dog's of War counters to scout skink hunters & chameleons with blowdarts, I'm all ears. They're really good for the points. Dwarf forums grumble their Organ Gun the answer. We don't have that style of artillery and haven't seen Leonardo de Miragliano since he traveled north with his Steam Tank designs. Back in the day, I eased into playing Empire for a Helblaster, etc., and bringing DoW pikes as auxiliaries. That's how I ended up selling off non-empire-themed DoW units (Manflayers, Wolfboys, redundant duellists, points-hogging slayer pirates when Flagellants served as well, etc.). As a DoW purist for now I'm relearning the ropes all over again with listbuilding, deployment, match-ups...

Any fast or maneuverable unit better than them in close combat can work. For dogs of war, duelists, any cavalry (careful of stand and shoot reactions with light cavalry), a character on a pegasus, and the Birdmen of Catrazza can all do this.

Second, something I observed in a pairs tournament I played in where I was lizardmen and my ally was dwarfs. People saw the skirmishers and the dwarfs and shot the big block of dwarfs. It turns out that it's easier to kill skinks than toughness 4 armoured targets with shooting, even with the extra penalty to hit. I think they see the -1 to hit and think, "how will I hurt those", ignoring that the toughness 4 saurus (or dwarfs for me) are slower, have what amounts to a -2 penalty to wound and have an armour save on top of that. Just shoot them, the skinks will start hurting you before anything else can and cause movement issues with march blocking, so they're very eligible targets (and are indeed unreasonably effective against the giant you have so worth it for that too). The Marksmen of Miragliano, with their high ballistics skill, are excellent for this, though normal crossbows are more than good enough.

Finally, all spells that do damage are excellent if you can get them cast. Not rolling to hit is very good here. There are issues with getting past higher generation Slaan's bonnus to dispelling though if present.

Any fast or maneuverable unit better than them in close combat can work. For dogs of war, duelists, any cavalry (careful of stand-and-shoot reactions with light cavalry), a character on a pegasus, and the Birdmen of Catrazza can all do this.

It's true, they are lousy in combat! WS3, A1, no armor save Hengus the L1 druid wizard held up the 10 of them for several rounds thanks to poor rolls and break tests working out for him. I had 10 Marksmen of Miragliano on the flank of the board, but since scouting positioned them out of the crossbowmen's shooting arc, they couldn't move and shoot at all... --they were beaten in deployment. I immediately recognized my error and packed up and ran the entire game with them. They would have panicked off the board from the hailstorm of 2x darts (10 scouts, 10 chameleons - 40 shots?).

Birdmen would have the same issue as the fast cav panicking. I love them, but they either overperform or are a gift to my opponents. They are usually interesting though... I should take them more often. Duellists could do the job albeit at a slightly higher price point if I were to take them in a clump of 13 to buffer the panic effects. I think the real lesson was deployment. I'd forgotten about scouting. My first game with a unit that scouted. The crossbows will have to find good board angles that limit scout placement options, though even here I feel the slinking buggers win: they have a great edge against panic and should be more than happy to harass crossbows head-on at a points advantage to keep the S4 off the saurus warrior blocks. They are a big part of what makes their list synergize so well I think.

I foresee them giving all-comers DOW lists a headache for the foreseeable future and will have to tighten up my deployment game, and that goes for just about every army. I'll need something to counter salamanders too, a cannon comes to mind, then protecting the crew from these scouts becomes the next problem, and so on. Hmmmmm.