Classichammer

I hope you are all doing well. I have another dumb question for you guys where I think I know the answer but cannot feel good giving a definitive ruling and cannot find anything explicitly answering it on the 6th Ed App's FAQ or in a quick google.

Can a High Elf Mage take the Honour Lion Guard and cast spells while wearing a lion cloak?

The rules as written: from page 15 of the High Elf Army Book, we get the Armoury and the Honours.

"Armoury - Lion Cloak: The white lion cloak that gives the White Lions of Chrace their name also gives them a +2 Armour Save vs missile fire. In combat it is thrown back over the shoulder and offers no additional protection."

"Honours - [General Description:] ...The only restrictions on who can take which Honour are noted in the descriptions of the abilities themselves."

"Lion Guard: The character comes equipped with a lion cloak. The character and any unit he leads is Stubborn. If you have a character with Lion Guard, then White Lions become a Special Choice for your army (but remain 0-1)."

"Loremaster: The character is a Level 1 Wizard. Note that he may not cast spells if he is wearing armour (remember that barding for his steed will not affect his spellcasting)."

My initial take: while a Mage may take the Honour for a battle, and will still generate Power and Dispel Dice, the cloak counts as armour and he may not cast spells during the battle.


It is interesting that the Loremaster Honour reminds us about the restriction of casting spells while wearing armour and the Lion Guard Honour does not. This does not necessarily mean anything, though. One possible argument for Rules as Intended being able to wear it and cast spells is that it is thrown over the shoulder when the user is being active. There is no restriction saying only Commanders and Princes can take this.

So while I think I know the answer to this, I still wanted to throw this out here for those experienced 6th Edition players who may have a surprise for me or who can confirm for me that my determination is correct. Have any of you ever played against someone who took this Honour on a Mage?



EDIT AFTER CHECKING THE BIG RED BOOK: In the main rulebook, on page 152, the description of Magic Armour states " A character who is not allowed to wear ordinary armour cannot be given magic armour. This includes many kinds of Wizard whose natural magical harmony would be seriously affected by armour. Therefore, Wizards cannot wear magic armour unless specifically mentioned in the description of the item."

Possible new take: The lion cloak has a component that improves armour save vs missile fire and two special rules attached to it. If the lion cloak counts as magic armour, Mages and Archmages would be prohibited from wearing it unless it specifically states they can in its description. As it does not, they are prevented from wearing the lion cloak by page 152 of the BRB.

The Lion cloak is definitely not magic armour, since it's not listed in the magic items section and not called out as being magical. So any restriction on magic armour doesn't apply here.

As you've already noted, if a wizard is wearing armour, then they cannot cast spells unless the armour or model specifies otherwise (chaos armour and blood dragon vampires are good examples of exceptions).

The lion cloak is armour, since it's listed in the "weapons and armour" section for the White Lions and it provides an armour save.

I would thus agree with your initial take: the mage may take the honour, and thus wear the cloak and be stubborn, but will no longer be able to cast spells.

Spot on interpretation. You did the right thing in going back to the Big Red Book. Army books iterate and modify the Warhammer rules, but seldom supercede them entirely.

By the way, Loremaster is written the way it is because it gives magic levels to characters who don't normally have them, and do have access to armour in their list entries. It's necessary to point out the "wizard in armour" aspect because an unusual design space is being opened, and there isn't existing core rules logic to bring forward: the order of operations in putting a list together might well go "look at list entry, buy armour, look at honours, buy Loremaster" so it's best to have an interruption to flow and remind players they can't do that.

Thank you both very much for taking the time to read that and to weigh in. I am going to allow the High Elf Mage to take the Honour, and therefore become Stubborn and equip the cloak, but he will be unable to cast spells since the cloak is a form of armour. He will still generate Power and Dispel dice as normal.

I don't get the use of that, honestly. If you want dice there are cheaper ways to get them. You'd be better served with a combat character with Lion Guard and having the Banner of Sorcery on an elite unit. Works out much cheaper and the combat character might actually DO something.

I think you're probably absolutely right that there could be some ways to make things more cost effective. The original idea was getting White Lions onto the roster in a 1500 point game, with a pair of Repeater Bolt Throwers occupying the sole Rare slot and with a Noble & BsB already on the roster for characters. They were looking to get a Mage on the field for the +1 to all Dispel attempts and the extra Dispel die while still being able to run a brawler team of Spearmen and White Lions. Ideally the Intrigue at Court roll would work out and both a unit of Spearmen and the unit of White Lions would be Stubborn with good LD. First Among Equals allows the Spears with whom the Lion Cloak Mage has embedded to have the common War Banner while the BsB with the Battle Banner embeds with the White Lions. The General joins them too, making the White Lions Stubborn. Bolt Throwers and Tiranoc Chariots look to support the flanks of the formation and weaken or counter charge anything that approaches. It might not have been the most efficient or effective roster but there was a method to the madness in this case.

Fair enough. I'd have to see the points breakdown as what your opponent wanted to do seems doable without the Lion Guard on him personally. I mean, they could also throw Loremaster onto one of the combat characters and simply use the #1 spell no matter what.




Would it be possible to see the list?

There very well may be a way to improve on the list but this was what it was:

HEROES (1-3)

COMMANDER - (Intrigue at Court). Honour: Pure of Heart, Talisman: Talisman of Protection, Heavy Armour, Hand Weapon & Shield. 86 Points.
COMMANDER - (This is the Battle Standard Bearer, Intrigue at Court). Magic Standard: The Battle Banner, Heavy Armour, Hand Weapon. 179 Points.
MAGE - (This is a LVL 1 Wizard, Intrigue at Court). Honour: Lion Guard. Hand Weapon & Lion Cloak. 140 Points.

CORE (2+)

SPEARMEN x 20 - Spears, Shields, & Light Armour. Full Command. Magic Standard: The War Banner. 270 Points.
SILVER HELMS X 6 - Heavy Armour & Shields, Barded Mounts, Lances. Full Command. 173 Points.

SPECIAL (0-3)

WHITE LIONS OF CHRACE X 20 - Light Armour, Lion Cloaks, Great Axes. Champion & Musician. 281 Points.
TIRANOC CHARIOT - 85 Points.
TIRANOC CHARIOT - 85 Points.

RARE (0-1)

REPEATER BOLT THROWER - 100 Points.
REPEATER BOLT THROWER - 100 Points.


TOTAL: 1499 Points

Model Count: 57 Models
Power Dice/ Turn : 3 (Only Useable to Dispel Spells in Play)
Dispel Dice/Turn: 3 (+1 to all Dispel Attempts as long as the Mage is alive)
Intrigue At Court means the General is determined semi-randomly. 16% Mage, 16% BsB, 66% Commander with Pure of Heart
The Commanders embed with the White Lions while the Mage embeds with the Spearmen (unless he is the General)
First Among Equals allows Spearmen to take a Magic Banner
Lion Guard Honour allows the White Lions to be Special Slot rather than Rare. If the General is with the unit, they are Stubborn.
The Mage may not cast spells. He and any unit he joins is Stubborn.
Tiranoc Chariots and Repeater Bolt Throwers can count 2 units as 1 Slot selection