Classichammer

As a thought experiment, and because I own a physical copy of the "Gavdex" - what I will think of, for convenience's sake, as the fifth edition Chaos Codex, which I know came out at the tail end of fourth but shush - I've taken my Chaos Space Marine list from last year's outing and run it through the newer book. I reviled it at the time, because I had problems in my life that I wasn't able to resolve and being het up about edition changes in game rules allowed me to vent my frustrations in an inconsequential arena that I could pretend actually mattered, but I don't have any baggage around THIS collection of Chaos Space Marines, so let's see how this army looks in the simple, elegant, austere and outright barren territory of Thorpe's vision for Chaos Space Marines.
It all feels so... naked. It's odd, because I usually praise elegance and minimalism and not having gratuitous extra rules all over the place, but this is - well, this is right down to the bone. Also, I am always going to be aware that this should be a Slaanesh extravaganza, with Daemonettes sitting in the generic summoning slot, and a Lash of Submission on the Prince, because Lash is so good and I only ever had it used against me, and I think the Slaanesh Daemon Weapon is probably better than the Nurgle one on the whole (Poison good, Instant Death better).

(For those not in the know: Lash of Submission was a Chaos psychic power. Pass a test, and you can move an enemy unit 2d6", in any direction of your choosing. This is horrendously good at towing enemies off objectives, into assault range, out of small arms range, into or out of line of sight, or into a nice cluster for your flashy new Vindicator to do a big pie plate on top of. And you can take it twice, because your Daemon Prince can have it and so can your Sorcerer. Rumour has it that a senior member of the Studio staff waved this through because, since it didn't kill anything, it couldn't be that overpowered.)

That said: it's an army list. It exists. It sits at the traditional and archetypal 1500 points. If the rest of the books had been this minimalist, the game might even have been a good time... but we're staring down the road to the Reign of the Beast, with Grey Knights and Necrons and Blood Angels and the Greatest of Them All, the Ultra Marines, all going the other way, into increasingly over-the-top special rules that are a fat sight more interesting than this "mostly basic weapons" outing.

Someone - it might have been Tony, actually - did once tell me that Thorpe was supposed to be turning over the first sod in a much more grand Chaos project, where Chaos Space Marines and Daemons were the foundation for a raft of additional Supplements like the loyalists have always had. In effect, the kind of thing we'd get with Traitor Legions at the tail end of seventh edition, and going into the current game. Sadly, someone in upper management got cold feet, and that didn't end up happening.

Someone else said that about the codex, not me.


What I have to say about that codex is it the devil is in the details. It looks like your forces are really light, but look at what you're armed with: every chaos Squad you have can operate as a Firebase or as an assault unit. You're automatically equipped with two close combat weapons and a distance weapon. The versatility of the list right there leads you to want more core chaos Marine troops instead of these heavily focused Elites because you're force can respond to pretty much any threat from where you're at.

Oh, they are absolutely flexible in terms of their tactical role. I'm, hmm. I'm not quite convinced any of that trumps Feel No Pain, a casual indifference to Morale, and being able to take two special weapons in a five man squad - Plague Marines were just, for whatever reason, "pushed" in that book. Not that I rushed out and bought any - I threw teddy out of the pram altogether and sold the army instead. Not my finest hour.

M.Y 01: JONATHAN E's engineers complete Planet's first Secret Project: THE GAVDEX PARADIGM!

I think the idea with the certain elements pushed by this codex is that it's supposed to be a way of giving each Chaos Power its own unique strengths and weaknesses. So Slaanesh has a really strong psychic power, Nurgle gets rock hard elite troops, Tzeentch gets... something... and Knorne gets... well I think it's supposed to be really good assault troops, but the writers were also a little gun-shy after the Book of Khorne in the Black Chaos Codex.

Then, you can put these diferent things together to create a Chaos Undivided army forged from distinct warbands and champions from the different Chaos Gods in support of a solid mass of basic Chaos Space Marines, to get a really strong and characterful Chaos Space Marine army. Or make a God-specific cult army that doubles down on one specific advantage in exchange for losing out in other areas.

That's what I think they were aiming for at least. I have still yet to capture a live specimen of the Gavdex for research, so I'm working with mostly second-hand information here.

I also think Just Tony is right in that part of why it feels particularly naked is because there is a little more going on under the hood of some units, especially the Chaos Space Marine troops, than there is in the 3rd edition books. If I remember right 4th edition was where basic frag and krak grenades started to transition from being discrete wargear items to integrated as part of the squad's basic equipment, and if the Gavdex is part of this trend then there's several extras that no longer show up on the army list right there (but I could very easily be wrong here. Again, I have no Gavdex specimens in captivity).

And for the record, I believe it was me that mentioned the Grand Chaos experiment planned in 2007 that failed to materialise. Personally I suspect it fell victim to shifting executive decisions and was a casualty of the decision to put 5th edition 40k into production, and that if 4th edition had been supported by GW for a few years longer we might very well have seen expansion supplements for Traitor Legions, Renegade Chapters and even a full Lost And The Damned codex, but then again the Chaos Space Marine/Daemon codex project was flawed from the start in that it was missing the cross-book interoperability that makes the 3rd and 4th edition Imperial books work together.

One thing I will say though, is that this particular Chaos Book does belong to a very unique pedigree, in that the 4th edition codexes in general represent the only time in history thus far where GW not only stopped the pattern of Codex Creep, but deliberately, purposefully, actively worked to reverse it, which is why the later 4th edition books such as this one feel notably more sparse and austere than the first codexes of 4th edition like the Space Marine and Tyranid books. And the GW 40k team of 2005 - 2007 should be commended for having the courage to push through with that, and for its own small part in that scheme, the Gavdex deserves some credit.

Now, what we really need are some battle reports to showcase this list in action!

Tzeentch gets Marines that win firepower duels with other Marines - AP3 boltguns that are always Rapid Firing, on a model with a 4+ Invulnerable save.

I definitely endorse the "mix and match" approach. I don't think there's as great a reward for going hard into one Power as there was with the Books of Chaos from the previous iteration - that's sort of what you were at, though, the superstructure of additional bennies like free Champions and summoning bonuses and Veteran Skills built in.

While you're correct about things like grenades going into the squad's standard loadout, I'm mostly thinking about Champion wargear (it's basically weapons, none of the invulnerable saves or fun little stat nudges from Gifts), Veteran Skills, and the really annoying way Marks of Chaos are tied to the Icon Bearer all of a sudden. I understand what it's representing - the Eye of God is drawn to those who raise a banner in its name - but it doesn't sit right with me for some reason.

And for the record, I believe it was me that mentioned the Grand Chaos experiment planned in 2007 that failed to materialise. Personally I suspect it fell victim to shifting executive decisions and was a casualty of the decision to put 5th edition 40k into production, and that if 4th edition had been supported by GW for a few years longer we might very well have seen expansion supplements for Traitor Legions, Renegade Chapters and even a full Lost And The Damned codex, but then again the Chaos Space Marine/Daemon codex project was flawed from the start in that it was missing the cross-book interoperability that makes the 3rd and 4th edition Imperial books work together.

Ah, that sounds about right. I believe Mr. Thorpe is on the record to that extent - there was so much more planned for Chaos, but there were cold feet at the top and what we got was two books which, as you say, weren't cross-compatible in the same way that the Imperial stuff was. It took a long while for summoned Daemons to settle back in to being a regular thing again and I think it's only with ninth edition that GW have really figured out how they want things like that to work.

I'll try and get some games in at some stage - when the Gothic War remount happens I'll see if I can make it into the depths of Middle Ingur-lund and attend.

That's right, I had forgotten that the Gavdex was the book that introduced AP3 boltguns.

Now that I think about it it is interesting that Slaanesh seems to have been spoilt for good mind powers by GW in the 2000s, going from having exclusive access to Gift Of Chaos in the Red 3rd edition codex (the best Chaos psychic power in 3rd edition 40k and I will die on that hill surrounded by a horde of Spawn that were once my enemies) to one of the better Minor Psychic Power tables in the Black 3rd edition codex (Siren, anyone?) to Lash of Submission here, all the while enjoying one of the juicier magic lores in 6th edition Warhammer. I cannot help but wonder if Lash Of Submission was the only time the writers overlooked a strong Slaaneshi power because it did not directly kill anything.

While you're correct about things like grenades going into the squad's standard loadout, I'm mostly thinking about Champion wargear (it's basically weapons, none of the invulnerable saves or fun little stat nudges from Gifts), Veteran Skills, and the really annoying way Marks of Chaos are tied to the Icon Bearer all of a sudden. I understand what it's representing - the Eye of God is drawn to those who raise a banner in its name - but it doesn't sit right with me for some reason.

Wait like none of the invulnerable saves at all? That is unsettling. I knew Veteran Skills and Gifts aren't present, but I had thought they would at least have kept in some defensive staples like Bionics and some kind of standard-issue 5+ Invlunerable Save item like everyone else gets.

I know I personally feel a little irked by the icon thing because it leaves no room for Chaos Space Marines who might not necessarily be that interested in worshipping Chaos enough to bother with icons, but for whom the Chaos Powers might still be interested enough in to award a Mark - like Night Lords. In other words, it sort of forces all Chaos Space Marines into the same dark religious mold.

But then I also lean into the Index Astartes stuff a lot more, so your issue might be something else about the Marks = Icons thing.

Kakapo42 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 3:52 amI cannot help but wonder if Lash Of Submission was the only time the writers overlooked a strong Slaaneshi power because it did not directly kill anything.

Board control was often very underrated - less so by the WFB developers, because it's much easier to read the impact of a unit pushed or pulled into a new position when you're dealing with big slow blocks and swings from rank/flank bonuses - so I think you might be on to something there.

Regarding Invulnerable Saves: Lords and Sorcerers have a 5+ Invulnerable Save built in, and Terminator armoured models get it from their Terminator Armour. There's nothing like the old Daemonic Aura or Bionics. I get why - the loadout of Aspiring Champions was another of those non-WYSIWYG invisible-rules scenarios that this book explicitly seeks to remove from the game - but bionics always felt like something one would model on, if one was arsed, and I can very much be arsed.

Regarding Marks and Icons - you get me. A good Chaos Codex has one list to rule them all, with a lot of room to tailor how your army plays into the niche you want to occupy. This is a bad Chaos Codex, which flattens all your niches into the one paradigm and tells you to put up with it.