Classichammer

Good Evening,

I have been gearing up to run two Siege Scenarios this summer. One of the battles will see the Vampire Counts attacking a castle defended by the High Elves.

I wanted to kick two of my signature obnoxious questions out to the people on the forum.

Page 256 of the Big Red Book tells us about restrictions for using Ladders as an attacker. "Units subject to Stupidity may not carry ladders, and no large creatures, such as Ogres, may use them to assault the walls."

This brings me to part 1 of the question- Can Zombies utilize ladders?

INITIAL GUT REACTION- No. The spirit of the rules preclude this. Zombies are not merely stupid; they are completely brain-dead.

RULES LAWYER IN THE BACK OF MY MIND: The rules are pretty clearly stated here, and Zombies do not in fact have the Stupidity rule, nor are they Ogre sized models. The 2002 Book on page 113 specifically closes the strategy off of raising Undead in the courtyard but makes no mention of Undead with ladders.

This question opens up a counter question from the High Elves- If High Elves go to page 161 of the General's Compendium and purchase walls Imbued with Magical Powers, would/should this stop the Undead from being able to summon units on top of the walls?

INITIAL GUT REACTION- Yes, this SHOULD. Normal castle walls are ALREADY a magical barrier against Ethereal units passing through. Upgrading these magic defenses for the hefty price of 50 points should also prevent summoning on top of the walls. We are again relying on spirit of the rules/intention of the authors rather than the rules as written.

RULES LAWYER IN THE BACK ON MY MIND: Once again, it is clearly stated what the purchase grants the High Elves player. 1 extra Dispel Dice per turn, nothing more, nothing less. The 2002 Book specifically legitimizes summoning on top of the Defender's walls as an intended strategy.

Rules as intended is not a dog that you want to Chase. You can try to speculate what their intention was from here until sunday. Remember when all of you said I was wrong with how I played the fear versus Terror thing? And Tuomas himself backed up my stance on the rules? Yeah, in that case everyone was trying to figure rules as intended rather than how it was expressly worded. Go with rules as written, and you can't go wrong.

Thank you for the advice!

I do remember that and I actually do take the Fear test during the Movement phase even when a Terror test has already been passed during the Start of the Turn phase now to play it correctly.

After thinking about it a lot I have changed my perspective from ‘this is punishing the charging player for charging from less than 6” away’ to ‘this is rewarding well-positioned Terror bombs.’

Large Target/Cause Terror stuff is tough to field and while in these situations the Terror test has been passed, the Terror causing creature still freezes an enemy unit in position by making it have to pass a second LD test. So while it will feel awful in the moment to that not-charging player I honestly don’t mind it and am glad I learned what they meant.

This one of Stupidity vs Braindead just feels very borderline to me. On the one hand, braindead is as stupid as you can be, but on the other hand, skeletons seem to be able to use siege equipment just fine and I can’t think of any other Core infantry units that are Stupid that this would apply to.

To fully disclose the situation I will be Vampire Counts for this battle and I have about 120 Zombies in my collection. I was thinking about just bringing 4 units of 25 or something like that with some ladders but I don’t want a huge part of my game plan to be based on a loop hole if I end up winning. My opponent is very easy going and chill but really is relying on me to know all the rules here and kind of be the ‘DM’ for our battles. So I am trying to make it fun and even and I guess I just also don’t want to over correct and take away a basic thing if I’m way over thinking it.

I have made their army list as competitive and defensive as possible to shut down the VC, so I am also trying to make this strong enough to be a threat to the High Elf stronghold so it’s exciting and fun.

There's no reason Zombies can't use ladders. They're not so mindless and brain-dead enough that they can't grapple with their victims to feast on their flesh, and if you can grapple with a struggling victim then you can probably figure out planting and climbing a latter to get to the flesh morsels on top of the high place.

Besides the character that you presumably have embedded in the Zombie unit for protection should be able to compel the undead minions slaved to their will through any finer subtleties of planting and climbing a siege ladder that they might otherwise struggle with.

I mean really how else are you supposed to swamp and overrun the castle battlements with your endless hordes of zombies? With siege towers? Those are even more complex.

Skeletons you say? Beyond the one unit of battering ram crew that represents the only sensible use-case for Skeletons in a Vampire Counts army? Don't make me laugh.

High Elf wall enchantments will vary depending on the specifics of the spells used and the skill and power of the mage or mages casting them. However in any case any unit of undead summoned directly inside the castle will of course arrive in the underground dungeon bowels of the castle 4+ levels below the fortress itself and will need to work their way up from there, which will take many turns during which they will be exceedingly vulnerable to any adventuring heroes that might be looking to explore the deeper levels of the castle for potions, gold and magic weapons.

Thank you for the advice too!

I sincerely appreciate you guys approaching this from
different angles and giving some thoughtful input.

I am leaning towards letting the Zombies use ladders as that is within the rules as written and most people I’ve talked to don’t see it as breaking the game or intentionally going against the spirit. I will ensure that the High Elves have plenty of dispel power for my casting, so I think I will allow summoning onto the walls as an option since it will be unlikely to even get through on most attempts.

This is my final question then: Who is this rule even for? What units of non Ogre sized infantry are Stupid in 6th Edition?

Strictly following the rules, ogre-sized models can carry ladders. They just can't climb them once they're in place. So the stupidity matters since it prevents trolls and the like from moving the ladders forward. And there are ways to have non-ogre size infantry be stupid. Anything affected by "A Befuddlement of Mischiefs" spites is stupid for one turn for example (they'd drop the ladders and you'd have to wait a turn to pick them up again).

As for summoning on the walls. If you can do it, you've probably already cleared the wall so there's a place at least 1" away from any enemy. You've earned summoning up there if it's possible.