Army elitism

[Alarantalara]

I was in a discussion about starting armies, and "too many models" came up as a reason not to start one. As a result I started wondering just how numerous are the various armies and proceeded to design the smallest and largest possible 2000 point armies by base count for everyone (i.e. most war machines end up counting as 4 models, while a stegadon with 5 skinks on it counts as one).
These are the results (army lists not included, but I can provide them on request).

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Bretonnia:        24-354 models
Chaos:             5-474 models
Dark Elves:       21-281 models
Dwarfs v1:        39-278 models
Dwarfs v2:        40-244 models
Empire:           20-391 models
High Elves:       22-176 models
Lizardmen:        25-325 models
Ogre Kingdoms:    15-837 models
Orcs and Goblins: 22-986 models
Skaven:           43-941 models
Tomb Kings:       16-225 models
Vampire Counts:   25-323 models
Wood Elves:       20-162 models

Chaos is Mortals, Daemons and Beasts in one list, though the final lists had no daemons. Empire can take steam tanks.

Most of the giant armies look almost reasonable, with the notable exception of Skaven, Ogres, and Chaos who run around with giant units to get that high.

Most of this isn't surprising. Access to chariots, swarms or monstrous infantry in core keeps numbers down, with cavalry coming in second. Really cheap fodder models gets numbers high. Having expensive or multiple required characters cuts into maximum numbers.

The interesting parts were how few dragons and how many chariots were in the lists. It almost always turned out that picking a less expensive mount than a dragon kept final numbers down because you could grab a hero that cost enough that you could just avoid having to start taking cheaper models. That is: two characters on lesser mounts usually cost more points than a character on a dragon and the cheapest non-character model you had to take once the expensive models were claimed. One army did keep a dragon, and it's not the one I expected.

Also, it's interesting that Wood Elves, High Elves and Tomb Kings must be elite, while Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms can choose.

Sadly, because of the overly elaborate models, I'm not sure I'd want to paint most of the minimum size armies. Most have multiple units that are hard to paint once assembled. Wood Elves might actually be the easiest of the bunch—no chariots, gyrocopters, or integral gnoblars. They still have multiple monsters though.

Edit: added in the second dwarf book — the anvil of doom taking a hero choices pushes the minimum up, while the required heavy armour pushes the maximum down.

[mattyfenby]

I’m curious what the 5 models in a Chaos list that add up to 2,000 points by themselves are. It would be really wild to see that fielded against the 986 model O&G list! Crazy that both can add up to the same total since it looks like most other armies need 20 or so models to hit 2000.

[Alarantalara]

It looks like this:
Lord of chaos on chariot of Tzeentch, mark of Tzeentch, skull of katam, crown of everlasting conquest, great weapon, shield: 599
Exalted champion of chaos, mark of Tzeentch, in chariot of Tzeentch, great weapon, shield, power familiar: 366
Exalted champion of chaos, mark of Tzeentch, in chariot of Tzeentch, great weapon, shield, mirror of knowledge, warrior familiar: 366
Exalted champion of chaos, mark of Tzeentch, in chariot of Tzeentch, great weapon, shield, 2 dispel scrolls: 366
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, great weapon: 303
2000 points
5 models
17 power dice, 8 dispel dice
Choices used: 1 lord, 3 heroes, 4 core, 1 rare

Using your mount as a separate Core choice really helps keep the numbers down.

Deployment is silly. Place the Shaggoth, deploy the entire rest of your army all at once, done.

[Kakapo42]

It may be fast to deploy, but all those ambitious power-crazed Tzeentch champions are going to make it a nightmare to keep as a coherent army. The political forces involved will tear it apart with infighting in very short order, especially if something happens to the Lord leading it.

[Alarantalara]

That's perfectly okay; it's not an army. It's 5 champions (yes, the Shaggoth counts) and they're competing for who can kill the most on the other side. It's also why they have chariots, just like the ancient Greek heroes in the Iliad who, just like these five, were perfectly willing to challenge each other or abandon the rest if slighted and there wasn't someone right there to fight (I'm looking at you Achilles).

Winner takes all.

[Llanoswar]

I was in a discussion about starting armies, and "too many models" came up as a reason not to start one. As a result I started wondering just how numerous are the various armies and proceeded to design the smallest and largest possible 2000 point armies by base count for everyone (i.e. most war machines end up counting as 4 models, while a stegadon with 5 skinks on it counts as one).
These are the results (army lists not included, but I can provide them on request).

Code: Select all

Bretonnia:        24-354 models
Chaos:             5-474 models
Dark Elves:       21-281 models
Dwarfs v1:        39-278 models
Dwarfs v2:        40-244 models
Empire:           20-391 models
High Elves:       22-176 models
Lizardmen:        25-325 models
Ogre Kingdoms:    15-837 models
Orcs and Goblins: 22-986 models
Skaven:           43-941 models
Tomb Kings:       16-225 models
Vampire Counts:   25-323 models
Wood Elves:       20-162 models

Chaos is Mortals, Daemons and Beasts in one list, though the final lists had no daemons. Empire can take steam tanks.

Most of the giant armies look almost reasonable, with the notable exception of Skaven, Ogres, and Chaos who run around with giant units to get that high.

Most of this isn't surprising. Access to chariots, swarms or monstrous infantry in core keeps numbers down, with cavalry coming in second. Really cheap fodder models gets numbers high. Having expensive or multiple required characters cuts into maximum numbers.

The interesting parts were how few dragons and how many chariots were in the lists. It almost always turned out that picking a less expensive mount than a dragon kept final numbers down because you could grab a hero that cost enough that you could just avoid having to start taking cheaper models. That is: two characters on lesser mounts usually cost more points than a character on a dragon and the cheapest non-character model you had to take once the expensive models were claimed. One army did keep a dragon, and it's not the one I expected.

Also, it's interesting that Wood Elves, High Elves and Tomb Kings must be elite, while Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms can choose.

Sadly, because of the overly elaborate models, I'm not sure I'd want to paint most of the minimum size armies. Most have multiple units that are hard to paint once assembled. Wood Elves might actually be the easiest of the bunch—no chariots, gyrocopters, or integral gnoblars. They still have multiple monsters though.

Edit: added in the second dwarf book — the anvil of doom taking a hero choices pushes the minimum up, while the required heavy armour pushes the maximum down.

Can you submit the lists pls? Great work! ^^

[Alarantalara]

In no particular order. Any of the largest armies that don't list enough core choices can split the models in the choice as desired. When there are exactly three choices, that's what you have to take and usually one unit is huge.

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Largest Bretonnian army:
Paladin, battle standard bearer, warhorse: 74pts
Damsel of the lady: 70pts
5 Knights of the Realm: 120pts
347 men-at-arms (in 2+ units): 1735
354 models - 1999pts

Largest chaos army:
Wargor: 60
5 gors, 152 ungors : 643
5 gors, 153 ungors : 647
5 gors, 153 ungors : 647
474 models - 1997 points

Largest dark elf army:
Beastmaster: 40pts
280 warriors with spears (in 3+ units): 1960pts
281 models - 2000pts

Largest dwarf army:
Thane, heavy armor, shield 61 pts
277 warriors with light armor (in 3+ units): 1939pts
278 models - 2000pts

Largest dwarf army-book 2:
Dragon slayer: 50
243 dwarf warriors, 1 is a musician (in 3+ units): 1949
244 models - 1999pts

Largest Empire army:
Captain: 50
390 Free company (in 3+ units): 1950
391 models - 2000 points

Largest high elf army:
Commander, heavy armor: 74
175 Spearmen (in 3+ units): 1925
176 models - 1999 points

Largest lizardmen army:
Skink chief: 55
324 Skink skirmishers (in 3+ units): 1944
325 models - 1999 points

Largest Ogre kingdom army:
Bruiser: 130
3 Bulls: 105
3 Bulls: 105
830 Gnoblar fighters: 1660
837 models - 2000 points

Largest Orc and Goblin army:
Night goblin big boss: 30
985 night goblins (in 3+ units): 1970
986 models - 2000 points

Largest Skaven army:
Chieftain: 45
20 Clanrats: 100
5 Nightrunners: 25
915 Skaven slaves: 1830
941 models - 2000 points

Largest Tomb King army:
Tomb prince: 100
Liche priest: 115
223 Skeleton warriors (in 3+ units): 1784
225 models - 1999 points

Largest vampire count army:
Necromancer: 65
322 Zombies (in 3+ units): 1932
323 models - 1997 pts

Largest wood elf army:
Branchwraith: 65pts
80 Glade guard: 960pts
81 Dryads: 972pts (or any other split between the two unit types)
162 models - 1997pts

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Smallest Brettonian army:
Bretonnian lord riding hippogryph, grail vow, lance, shield, Sirienne's Locket, Falcon-horn of Fredemund: 447
Paladin riding barded warhorse, battle standard bearer, grail vow, banner of the lady, virtue of knightly temper: 235
Paladin riding royal pegasus, grail vow, morning star, lance, shield, virtue of confidence, Antlers of the Great Hunt: 187
Paladin riding royal pegasus, grail vow, morning star, lance, shield, virtue of confidence: 187
Paladin riding royal pegasus, grail vow, morning star, lance, shield, Tress of Isoulde, Virtue of Audacity: 187
5 Knights of the Realm, full command, war banner: 169
5 Knights of the Realm, full command, twilight banner: 169
5 Knights of the Realm, full command, conqueror's tapestry: 169
4 Pegasus knights, standard bearer, musician: 250
24 models - 2000 points 

Smallest chaos army:
Lord of chaos on chariot of Tzeentch, mark of Tzeentch, skull of katam, power familiar, great weapon, shield: 599
Exalted champion of chaos, mark of Tzeentch, in chariot of Tzeentch, great weapon, shield, 2 dispel scrolls: 366
Exalted champion of chaos, mark of Tzeentch, in chariot of Tzeentch, great weapon, shield, 2 dispel scrolls: 366
Exalted champion of chaos, mark of Tzeentch, in chariot of Tzeentch, great weapon, shield, 2 dispel scrolls: 366
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, great weapon: 303
5 models - 2000 points

Smallest dwarf army:
Runelord, gromril armor, shield, great weapon, 3 spelleater runes, anvil of doom (+2 models): 511
Runesmith gromril armor, great weapon, shield, 3 spellbreaker runes: 159
Runesmith gromril armor, great weapon, shield, spellbreaker rune, master rune of balance: 159
Thane, battle standard bearer, master rune of valaya, rune of courage, rune of slowness, gromril armor: 313
11 rangers with crossbows and shields, full command: 228
10 thunderers with shields, full command: 175
10 thunderers with shields, full command: 175
Gyrocopter: 140
Gyrocopter: 140
39 models - 2000pts

Smallest dwarf army
Dwarf lord, oath stone, hand gun, master rune of kingship, rune of brotherhood, rune of the furnace, pistol, shield: 328
Thane, battle standard bearer, oath stone, master rune of valaya, strollaz's rune, rune fo slowness: 315
Thane, oath stone, pistol, handgun, shield, master rune of spite, rune of luck, rune of warding: 177
Thane, oath stone, pistol, handgun, shield, rune of fate, master rune of challenge, rune of brotherhood: 177
Gyrocopter: 140
Gyrocopter: 140
10 Longbeard rangers, shields, great weapons, throwing axes, full command, master rune of grungni: 235
10 Thunderers, shields, full command: 175
10 Thunderers, shields, full command: 175
Cannon, master rune of defense, rune of burning: 135 (4 models)
40 models - 1997

Smallest dark elf army:
Sorceress on manticore, level 4, 4 dispel scrolls: 545
Noble in chariot with spears/crossbows, heavy armor, sea dragon cloak, shield, repeater crossbow, lance, 50 points magic items: 253
Noble, battle standard bearer, heavy armor, sea dragon cloak, banner of nagarythe, in chariot with spears/crossbows: 362
Noble in chariot with spears/crossbows, heavy armor, sea dragon cloak, shield, repeater crossbow, lance, seal of ghrond, crystal of midnight: 253
5 Dark riders with crossbows, full command: 155
5 Dark riders with crossbows, full command: 155
6 Dark riders with crossbows, full command: 179
chariot with spears: 97
21 models - 1999 points

Smallest Empire army:
Elector count on Griffon, pistol, longbow, full plate armor, shield, laurels of victory, the white cloak: 420
Captain on barded warhorse, battle standard bearer, full plate, imperial banner: 197
Captain on pegasus, pistol, longbow, full plate, shield, jade amulet: 177
Captain on pegasus, pistol, longbow, light armor, shield, sigil of sigmar: 141
5 Inner circle knights of the White Wolf, full command, banner of Ulric: 230
5 inner circle knightly orders, full command, griffon standard: 220
5 knightly orders, full command, banner of valor: 195
Steam tank, volley gun, fighting platform: 420
20 models - 2000 points

Smallest high elf army:
Archmage in chariot with 2 extra steeds, level 4, 4 dispel scrolls: 454
Mage in chariot with 1 extra steed, level 2, 2 dispel scrolls: 272
Mage in chariot with 1 extra steed, level 2, 2 dispel scrolls: 272
Mage in chariot with 1 extra steed, level 2, 2 dispel scrolls: 272
5 Silver helms, full command: 150
5 Silver helms, full command, lion standard: 175
5 Silver helms, full command: 150
3 chariots: 255
22 models - 2000 points

Smallest lizardmen army:
Slann mage-priest, 3rd generation, battle standard bearer, totem of prophecy, cupped hands of the old ones, the divine plaque of protection: 610
Skink priest on stegadon level 2, scout, blessed mark of the old ones, 2 dispel scrolls: 430
Skink priest on stegadon level 2, scout, blessed spawning of sotek, 2 dispel scrolls: 415
2 Jungle swarms: 120
10 temple guard, shields, full command, sun standard of chotec: 255
10 saurus warriors, spears, full command: 170
25 models - 2000 points

Smallest Ogre Kingdom army:
Tyrant, great weapon, brace of handguns, two sword gnoblars, luck gnoblar, heavy armor, kineater, cathayan jet, daemon-killer scars: 347
Bruiser, ironfist, brace of handguns, two sword gnoblars, luck gnoblar, heavy armor, brahmir statue, wallcrusher: 221
Bruiser, battle standard bearer, two sword gnoblars, luck gnoblar, lookout gnoblar, heavy armor, dragonhide: 239
Bruiser, ironfist, brace of handguns, two sword gnoblars, luck gnoblar, heavy armor, jade lion, deathcheater: 221
3 Bulls, hand weapons and iron fists, light armor, full command, lookout-gnoblar: 184
3 Ironguts, full command, lookout-gnoblar, ragbanner: 234
3 Ironguts, full command, lookout-gnoblar: 199
Slave giant: 175
Slave giant: 175
15 models - 1995 points

Smallest Orc and Goblin army:
Orc warboss riding wyvern, armor of mork, warboss Imbad's Iron Gnashas, shield, spear: 446
Savage orc big boss battle standard bearer riding boar, warpaint mork's spirit totem: 199
Orc shaman riding boar chariot, level 2, 2 dispel scrolls: 230
Orc shaman riding boar chariot, level 2, 2 dispel scrolls: 230
3 snotling swarms: 75
5 goblin wolf riders, spears, shortbows, shield, full command: 100
5 goblin wolf riders, spears, shortbows, shield, full command: 100
3 goblin wolf chariots with extra wolf and goblin: 210
Giant: 205
Giant: 205
22 models - 2000 points

Smallest skaven army:
Grey seer on screaming bell, 14 warpstone tokens: 535
Assassin, smoke bombs, skalm: 175
Assassin, smoke bombs, brass orb: 175
Assassin, smoke bombs, cloak of shadows: 175
20 Clanrats with spears, full command: 145
+ 1 warpfire thrower: 75
2 Poisoned wind globadiers: 20
5 Clan pestilens Rat swarm: 325
10 Gutter runner tunneling team, black skaven, slings, poisoned throwing stars, poisoned hand weapons: 272 
Warp-lightning cannon: 100
43 models - 1997pts

Smallest Tomb king army:
Tomb king, in chariot, great weapon, light armor, shield, icon of rulership, blue khepra, crown of kings: 327
Liche priest on skeleton steed, 2 dispel scrolls: 173
Tomb prince, in chariot, great weapon, light armor, shield, chariot of fire, collar of shapesh: 203
Tomb prince, in chariot, great weapon, light armor, shield, brooch of the great desert, golden eye of rah-nut: 203
2 Tomb swarm: 90
3 chariots, full command, icon of the sacred eye: 220
3 chariots, full command: 170
Tomb scorpion: 85
Tomb scorpion: 85
Bone giant: 220
Bone giant: 220
16 models - 1996 points

Smallest Vampire count army (Blood dragons/Von Carsteins):
Vampire count on winged nightmare, level 2, 4 dispel scrolls: 515
Necromancer on barded nightmare, level 2, 2 dispel scrolls: 162
Necromancer on barded nightmare, level 2, 2 dispel scrolls: 162
Vampire thrall on barded nightmare, battle standard bearer, heavy armor, hell banner: 186
4 Bat swarm: 240
5 Dire wolves, doom wolf: 60
5 Dire wolves, doom wolf: 60
5 Spirit hosts: 325
Banshee: 90
Black coach: 200
25 models - 2000 pts

Smallest wood elf army:
Wood elf highborn on Forest dragon, the Rhymer's harp, the horn of Asrai, eternal kindred, spear, light armor, shield: 584pts
Spellsinger, glamourweave kindred, unicorn, level 2, Calaingor's staff, a pageant of shrikes: 195
Spellsinger, glamourweave kindred, unicorn, level 2, Moonstone of hidden ways: 180
5 Glade riders, full command: 156pts
5 Glade riders, full command: 156pts
5 Glade riders, full command: 156pts
Treeman: 285pts
Treeman: 285pts
20 models - 1997pts