DOW clarification

[Just Tony]

So I'm in the middle of a bickering match on the 6th Ed. Facebook group over whether armies can take DOW non-named characters. My argument is there's no text saying you CAN'T, and the only argument is that they say you can buy units as a Rare slot. Several parts of the rulebook treat characters as units of 1, and characters are affected by spells and effects aimed at units. So how is this any differrent?

[TinyLegions]

I need to look more into this, but I would say that this is very nebulous. I want to dig out my FAQ's out first to verify what I see. I don't want to say what I remember people doing 20 years ago and have it not be the case.

[mattyfenby]

This does seem incredibly nebulous. I think the spirit of the rules leaves room for good faith arguments from both sides. I see two possible rules as written arguments against, but neither seem to be explicitly conclusive.

Pg. 57 of the 2004 Book there is a section titled Special Characters and Regiments of Renown. The final sentence of the paragraph is “Dogs of War special characters can be fielded only by Dogs of War armies.” Is a special character any Hero or Lord, or by adding the word special have they made the distinction that it is a named character?

The next paragraph does say “In general, they are included in the lists as a rare choice.” This leaves the door open for them to not be a Rare slot but you could make the argument that they were allowing for Special slots to apply when thematically appropriate for the faction or stated in the Regiments of Renown ‘For Hire’ section.

I think they were extremely reluctant to definitively tell people they could not play with models they had already bought at the time and leaned heavily on “if your opponent agrees with you on DoW, use them, or you guys can agree to ban them altogether.” Our club has found the BRB explanation of terrain to be the same way. Pretty much “As long as you and your opponent agree, the terrain is whatever you say it is.”

I would probably caution against doing it in a competitive or tournament setting, or at least getting permission first, but I don’t see why there would be any theme or lore reason why hireling wizards and mercenary captains wouldnt sell their services like any other mercenary soldier and I wouldnt see why it would be a big deal in a friendly game or a friendly campaign scenario. If you and your opponent agree to it then I think that is what the spirit of the rules and even the rules as written would support.

[TinyLegions]

Pulled out my box of books this week. I tend to agree with Matt on this. It is very nebulous. I don't see anything that says that you can't use a character, but I don't see anything that specifically says that you can. Certainly you can use the special characters in a DOW slot. So I don't know.

Question is though, who would use a DOW character? There are better Lords and Heroes out there for most armies, and the only army that would seriously take a DOW character would be Dwarves to get a hireling Wizard. I don't recall if we could use hireling wizards back then, which is why I hedged in my previous post. It feels like that we could, but I can't see a place where someone used it in the past. I do know that we used the Albion characters that were both magic users. I am going to continue looking to see if I can find any clarification, by going over past bat reps, and lists on various sites that archived their old forums, but I really cant be certain. Overall I would not use them for the above reasons.

BTW: Matt when they use the term "Special Characters," they mean the named characters. That would mean for the DOW all of those named characters who bring along full units are all special characters, as are the named characters in the back of any of the army books that we have out there.

[Just Tony]

I have a Wizard that I occasionally throw into my Dwarfs army just to throw people off guard. Yeah, I could do Truthsayer or Dark Emissary, but I want Lore of Life, damn it.

[Alarantalara]

Question is though, who would use a DOW character? There are better Lords and Heroes out there for most armies, and the only army that would seriously take a DOW character would be Dwarves to get a hireling Wizard. I don't recall if we could use hireling wizards back then, which is why I hedged in my previous post. It feels like that we could, but I can't see a place where someone used it in the past.

I can think of a whole pile of reasons to take one or more characters, and apart from the Dwarfs taking a hero level wizard for fun, most are abusive.
1) Grab some extra cheap level 4 wizards as rare choices and bring on the casting dice. 210 points for a level 4 wizard is a deal—cheaper than basically everything but an Empire wizard and doesn't occupy a lord slot if you take the "as a rare choice" literally so you can have multiples or even one in a sub 2000 point game.
2) Need a scroll caddy? Your 90 point Dark Elf sorceress or 95 point High Elf wizard costs too much? Come to discount Dan and get a level 1 wizard for just 60 points! (Dispel scrolls not included) (The only armies with cheaper ones are Orcs and Goblins and Skaven)
3) Want some backbone for your Skaven army? A mercenary captain (or even general) is just the thing to make sure the rats stay around. Character? Check. Highest leadership in the army? Check. Allowed to be the army general? Check?!?
4) Everyone loves the Lore of Heavens? Everybody gets the Lore of Heavens!
5) For 100 points you too can have a captain on a pegasus to hunt down those war machines. Just the thing for the Orc and Goblin army who don't have any flyers (okay, they have a wyvern, but that's more than twice the cost for just the mount). Note that this costs the same as two great eagles, would use the same rare slot and has one extra attack and one less wound. In other words it's just about as good, but everyone can get one and you can upgrade it.
6) How would you like two battle standard bearers? The paymaster does everything the battle standard bearer does, but isn't one, so you can bring along your own. Double bubble!

That's probably enough to get the idea. I'm not totally against the idea of having Dogs of War characters join, but I'd want them to also count as a Hero or Lord as appropriate, ban the paymaster entirely, and forbid them from being the army general. The discounts I'm not quite as concerned with when you're giving up character and rare slots to allow it.

[Just Tony]

Funny that they didn't argue with me taking a DOW cannon in my Beastmen army. The "technically not a unit" argument works here as well.

[TinyLegions]

Question is though, who would use a DOW character? There are better Lords and Heroes out there for most armies, and the only army that would seriously take a DOW character would be Dwarves to get a hireling Wizard. I don't recall if we could use hireling wizards back then, which is why I hedged in my previous post. It feels like that we could, but I can't see a place where someone used it in the past.

I can think of a whole pile of reasons to take one or more characters, and apart from the Dwarfs taking a hero level wizard for fun, most are abusive.
1) Grab some extra cheap level 4 wizards as rare choices and bring on the casting dice. 210 points for a level 4 wizard is a deal—cheaper than basically everything but an Empire wizard and doesn't occupy a lord slot if you take the "as a rare choice" literally so you can have multiples or even one in a sub 2000 point game.
2) Need a scroll caddy? Your 90 point Dark Elf sorceress or 95 point High Elf wizard costs too much? Come to discount Dan and get a level 1 wizard for just 60 points! (Dispel scrolls not included) (The only armies with cheaper ones are Orcs and Goblins and Skaven)
3) Want some backbone for your Skaven army? A mercenary captain (or even general) is just the thing to make sure the rats stay around. Character? Check. Highest leadership in the army? Check. Allowed to be the army general? Check?!?
4) Everyone loves the Lore of Heavens? Everybody gets the Lore of Heavens!
5) For 100 points you too can have a captain on a pegasus to hunt down those war machines. Just the thing for the Orc and Goblin army who don't have any flyers (okay, they have a wyvern, but that's more than twice the cost for just the mount). Note that this costs the same as two great eagles, would use the same rare slot and has one extra attack and one less wound. In other words it's just about as good, but everyone can get one and you can upgrade it.
6) How would you like two battle standard bearers? The paymaster does everything the battle standard bearer does, but isn't one, so you can bring along your own. Double bubble!

That's probably enough to get the idea. I'm not totally against the idea of having Dogs of War characters join, but I'd want them to also count as a Hero or Lord as appropriate, ban the paymaster entirely, and forbid them from being the army general. The discounts I'm not quite as concerned with when you're giving up character and rare slots to allow it.

LOL, Ok point taken, and I see what you mean by abusive. On a different note that may warrant its own thread, but I can't stand how the varied lore's are doled out so miserly.

[TinyLegions]

Funny that they didn't argue with me taking a DOW cannon in my Beastmen army. The "technically not a unit" argument works here as well.

Yep that's right. It is one of those things where I like the idea of a DOW army by itself as it is a catch-all or a count-as for any human army that you want more or less. Using DOW as a rare slot? The threat of abuse is legitimate. Same scenario is using Knights in with my Dwarf army.

[Just Tony]

Usually I run a unit of Knights as my second Dwarfs Rare slot, with the Wizard being the first. I also planned on converting a bunch of Miners riding that Skull Pass donkey cart as my dedicated DOW Cav unit for my Dwarfs.

[TinyLegions]

I think that I may have a clearer answer for you, JT.

BRB p40: In most cases, models band together into units. A unit will usually consist of several models, but a lone heroic character, a single, very large and powerful model such as a chariot, a monstrous creature like a Dragon or Great Cannon and it screw are also considered to be a unit.

From there, I would say so.

[mattyfenby]

Cant agree more that a war machine and its crew are considered a unit. The only time they do not act as a typical unit would is when they are fleeing from or abandoning their war machine, or re crewing another abandoned war machine. Certainly for the purposes of army selection, purchase, and deployment they can be considered a unit in all respects.

It sounds like the general consensus is:

Bringing unnamed DoW characters is probably fine in thematic campaigns or friendly scrimmages, but it’s always a good idea to be up front about your intentions/ask permission.

It MIGHT be allowed in competitive play (with the following restrictions) but you should always ask and check rather than assuming it is legit.

RESTRICTIONS:

Hero or Lord characters should occupy Hero or Lord slots.

Non DoW armies may not employ a Paymaster.

Non DoW armies may not select a DoW character as their General, even if this model has the highest LD value.

[TinyLegions]

Ill be honest I think that this falls under the "Are allowed to do," as opposed to "Should do." Meaning that you may be allowed to do, pending approval from who you are playing, or event organizers, but should you do it? That is on you.

Personally, I don't think that I ever will use a DOW character in my army in a one off game, tournament, league, etc. Would I allow it in say a campaign that I am running? Maybe given certain circumstances. Mighty Empires had a Wizard Tower as a tile marker in the game. That tile did have an option where you got wizard apprentices.(basically scroll caddy's) I would certainly allow that as it is a special circumstance when you find the tower on the board.

[Augrimm]

I'm pretty sure that, Rules as Intended, the only DOW characters which you are allowed to take are those that come in Regiments of Renown or the Dark Emissary/Truthsayer. as the rules blurb in the army books regarding DoW refers to being able to hire troops and regiments.

Also, the maximum number of Heroes that an army can contain is generally set in their build rules (some races such as Bretonnia, Lizardmen, and Goblins can have more that the standard amount), and should be enforced no matter how they are obtained.

Now, if you want to try this amongst your local game group, give it a go, (Tzeentch knows our group has allowed some bizarre scenarios in our time), but I wouldn't exspect it to fly at a tourne, local game event, or pick up games with strangers.

[Radii Bokha]

Light thread necro cantrip.

I'd like to play a pre-arranged scenario against VC where I could have a reason to take The Witch Hunters RoR. Those guys are so bored in my collection I think narrative play could be really fun, but you have to have the right gaming group that wants to put in the effort to do it that way. I don't even get any Necromunda narrative games in and that is the primary strength of the format.

On topic, I'm with only being able to use RoR characters (Like Johann and Wilhelm above) and Albion casters. I do remember cannons being unpopular, and I agree for fluff reasons but not rules. I don't want to see Braganza in the back of a Nurgle-themed army, but a converted blowfly launching pustules of corruption is a thumbs up from me. Make it look good.

[Just Tony]

I planned on my lone Beastmen cannon to look suitably... beastly.



And from what I'm understanding we may be picking up a VC player in our group now. I think Ashley said you won't be able to hit this month, though...

[TinyLegions]

As a reminder Threadnomancy is not only tolerated but encouraged on this board. I would rather have one thread on a subject that has pertinent details than five separate threads all talking about the same damn thing.