Chaos Warriors are actually kinda bad....

[Augrimm]

Now now.... please put down your torches and pitchforks..... let's be reasonable about this....

Ok, I'll be the first to admit that Chaos warriors come with a heathy stat-line and good armour. The problem with them is their cost and speed. Pricey elite infantry have their place in a more defensive list, where the lack of speed is less of an issue. Empire Greatswords, Dwarven elites, and even Wood Elf Eternal Guard are perfectly content to stick to minor manouvering in order to intercept incoming troops that have been whittled down with missle fire, leaving the war machines, handgunners and archers to keep bombarding the enemy in peace. They often have rules that keep them in the fight longer against superior foes such as being Stubborn or resistant to psychology.

Very few chaos armies on the other hand, can win a battle at range and thus take a more assault oriented role. Our infantry is often not sitting back and waiting to intercept a charge, but rather advancing on the enemy with homicidal intentions. While warriors have good stats, they really don't hit hard enough to count as a true hammer unit (unless chosen or khorne, which are another story.... a bit more on khorne warriors later) and thus rely rather heavily on their static ranks, standard, musician and a bit of good die rolling. Also, they are rather slow (only M4) and since you'll often have to transverse 24+ inches to engage the enemy (few enemies will advance upon a unit of chaos killers unless they are pretty sure they can destroy it or tie it up for a few rounds with sacrificial units and thus take it out of the game) it'll quite often take you 4 turns to get into combat with the enemy (and if you get marchblocked early then you may never reach them), and personally I don't care to spend a large portion or points on a unit that'll probabily see only a single combat, especially since marauders can perform much the same role for less points.

Let's compare 2 fairly standard units: A unit of 15 chaos warriors with heavy armour, sheilds and full command (250pts) and a unit of 25 marauders with light armour, sheilds, and full command (200 pts), which is a fairly standard static CR unit .

Let's assume the 2 forces are fighting each other. Both units have made it to each other without taking any casualties and the warriors have gotten the charge.

The warriors charge in, deal out 6 attacks, average 4 hits and inflict 3 wounds (well, a bit less than 3 but we're rounding up for simplicity), one of which is deflected by the marauder's armour save. The marauders strike back with 4 attacks, but they bounce harmlessly of the warrior's toughness and armour (they average .22 of a wound after saves).

The chaos warriors have standard, 2 ranks, and 2 kills for a CR of 5. The marauders have 3 ranks, standard, and outnumber for a CR of 5. Since both have musicians the combat is a draw. It'll take quite some time for the warriors to whittle the Mauraders down to where they'll start winning by any convincing margin, allowing the marauder's player to bring support to flank the warriors (such as a Beastchariot, or horsemen) and turn the tide. Since he paid 50 pts less for his unit, he can afford more for support for his infantry.

Worse still, the chaos warriors rely on the dice remaining kind to continue to match the Maraduers, while the marauders need no such luck. One round of bad dice on the warriors part or one moment of brilliance on behalf of the marauders and suddenly it's the warriors losing and perhaps being run down without the marauder player even needing to bring in his support.....

..... And this was a best case scenario, with the chaos warriors marching the breadth of the board without taking any losses. With only a couple of casualties, the warriors have lost a rank, while the marauders need to lose 7 before they start losing static CR (10 if deployed 4 wide). In this case when they meet in combat, the marauders are winning from the get go.

Now you can take bigger units of warriors or even make them chosen, but at that point you are plopping too many points in a single barrel for perhaps no greater result (after all, as warriors are so slow the enemy can delay/marchblock/redirect/avoid them with a little effort). There are simply better things in the chaos list to spend the points on.

For even those 250 points I'd rather a pair of chariots(240 points), a small unit of 5 Khorne knights with standard and musician( 240pts), or a couple of 3 model chaos ogre units with GWs (246pts) to act as a flanking force. Each of these choices will make it into combat quicker, hit harder, in general cause more havoc and have a greater impact on the game than the same points in warriors and as already shown, marauders make a cheaper, more reliable anvil unit.

Khorne warriors are another matter, as their frenzy(thus hitting power), extra dispel die, relative cheapness compared to chosen, and ability to take the Banner of Rage (never lose their frenzy and re-roll failed break tests) makes them a pretty good combo anvil/hammer unit, but in the by and large, chaos warriors simply aren't worth the points you need to spend on them.

[Alarantalara]

If they don't hit hard enough, then the upgrades you want are those that increase hitting power, not survivability. Don't take shields.

At initiative 5, the approach of having more/better attacks instead of relying on armour to prevent wounds works very well.
A unit of 10 warriors with extra hand weapons and command has almost double the total attacks as the shield warriors and costs only 200 points, the same as the sample marauder unit. Despite losing an entire rank, doubling the number of wounds inflicted makes the retaliation almost nonexistent and the warriors are now consistently winning every round thanks to the increased wounds. Even if the marauders don't win, the warriors now have a reasonable chance of destroying the unit before the game ends with those wounds.

For that matter, the hand weapon unit also ties the shield unit initially and starts winning once the shields have lost their rank bonus. 11/8 wounds inflicted per round by the extra hand weapons, and only 25/48 for the shields.

Similar arguments can be made for the other weapon upgrades, though they're not as general purpose, the higher base strength makes them useful choices for taking on other elite units with truly heavy armour.

Compared to the alternatives you listed, ogres take two special choices and are thus very limited, Khorne units can be lead by frenzy, and chariots lose their hitting power if they don't charge. All of them also cost more points. Chaos warriors are fine as an alternative, though I'd be taking the chariots too given the chance.

[Just Tony]

I don't own the models yet to do so, but my ideal Chaos roster would be 2 20 man sword and board Warriors with full command and 2 20 man great weapon Marauders with full command and fill the rest to taste. That gives me two very good anvils to receive a charge and stand a good chance of holding if not winning, and Flanders who hit REALLY hard.

[Augrimm]

@ Alarantalara

Actually the 2 weapon warriors suffer pretty much the same against the marauders. With now 11 attacks, they average 3 wounds after saves (3.26 but again, rounding for simplicity). with a rank and banner that adds up to 5 CR against the Maruaders' 5 (3 ranks, standard + outnumber) thus a draw.

The problem that they now face is that they are even more reliant of good dice and in getting the charge against the enemy, something that M4 troops in a list that has to advance on the enemy should never really count on (except against dwarves). With only a 5+ armour save they are vulnerable to being charged by even chump infantry, as a single leaked wound means that they are losing from the start. Against better troops, cavalry, monstrous infantry, chariots, basically EVERYTHING else, they are far inferior to the static marauder block, albeit for the same point cost now.

For example, let us now compare your 10 man unit of Chaos warriors against a 200pt unit of Beastigors (14 with full command comes to 198pts). The Beastigors get the charge due to M5 and their 6 S6 GW attacks inflict 2-3 wounds (2.5 average) on the chaos warriors. The survivors strike back with 5-7 attacks, causing a generously rounded up 2 wounds (1.39-1.94 average) after saves. The Beastigors win combat by 2 or 3 due to outnumber and greater rank bonus and have a decent chance to break the warriors and run them down. And that's to what many say are a unit that is worse than warriors!

Now, one thing that we've toyed around with is taking that 10-12 man unit (either with GWs or EHW) with only the champion upgrade and using it as a support unit for a unit of mauraders, much like an empirical detachment, but again they're pretty pricy for a support unit.

Yes, the ogres cost 2 special slots, but Warriors of Chaos are spoiled with solid core choices. Heck, if you need the special slots, you can take OK ogres as a rare choice, as Chaos rares are actually pretty bad except maybe for Dragon Ogres (though they are a bit too pricy for my liking). Chariots do lose a lot of their damage if they don't charge, but the threat of the double chariot treatment can be enough to lock down a section of the battlefield. Even if charged, if you placed them close enough together the enemy will have to charge both and together they have the combat power of a small unit of chaos knights (4 S5 and 4S4 attacks are decent) and you can flee as a charge reaction. Khorne has to deal with it's frenzy true, but every good Khorne general has to learn to deal with that, and if Khorne knights can be lead around and negated, M4 infanty is far more vulnerable to being taken out of the equation by the same tools that would be used to accomplish this (usually fast cav, skirmishers and fliers).

Now, if you want to make a truly tanky unit of warriors go with 20 Warriors (5 wide), Mark of Slaanesh, shields, full command & Raptuorus Standard. Now this unit won´t kill a lot, but they will suffer next to no casualties in combat as any opponents will only hit them on 5+ & then the T4 & 3+ save will absorb the few wounds that do get through. The problem of getting the enemy to engage this unit remains, and it is a massive point sink, but unless the enemy is willing to through an obscene amount of power against it, it won't be giving up any points either. If you are playing a points denial strategy in chaos... somehow... this unit is great at it.

@ Just Tony: The problem you will have is enemies who will ignore/tie up your warrior blocks and smash your marauders instead. With only T3 and no real armour to speak of, they will drop in droves against enemy hammer units.

[Kakapo42]

Chaos Warriors are actually excellent troops, and formidable adversaries.

They are experienced fighters, hardened by many decades if not centuries of war in the Northern Wastes. Their weapons and battlegear are well crafted, easily the match for anything forged by the southern nations of Men and sometimes even rivals the craftsmanship of the Elves, if not for the loathsome and vile evil that permeates its hell forged surfaces.

Chaos Warriors are fearless in battle, heedless of danger, but still disciplined enough to wage complex wars. They have the strength to throw grown men about like rag-dolls, and a fiendishly astute grasp of battle tactics. While they are still mortal, they care little for food, drink or rest, care even less of pain, and can march across great distances at speed.

Their armour is thick, and their shields broad.

Chaos Warriors are often a close match for the best fighters and knights of the civilised realms of Men, yet are available in far greater numbers.

And best of all, they are utterly relentless and single-minded in both their pursuit of dark glory and their dedication to their master. You compare them to Marauders, but a band of 15 Chaos Warriors will continue fighting on campaign long after the Marauders have been broken from lack of food, water and family and turned back for their homes. They will also keep fighting against odds that would make Marauders mutiny against you in fear for their lives. They ask for little but the glory of triumphing in battle, where the Marauders will quickly drain your war chest with their endless demands for ample food, water and plunder.

They are everything a dark lord could possibly ask for in a core battle-line regiment.

Cost? What matter is cost? What meager savings in gold would be worth passing up an army worthy of The Gods themselves? Earthly wealth is fleeting, but glory in the eyes of the Dark Gods and ascension to their otherworldly divinity is ETERNAL!

Wage larger campaigns if you worry about numbers. There is plenty of room for ample Chaos Warrior regiments and abundant support for them in a typical 8000 point battle.

Points can be whatever you want them to be. Life is far too short to worry about a silly thing like points values.

[Alarantalara]

I wrote a few paragraphs and eventually decided I was arguing for the sake of arguing, so I deleted it and started over. They're not the greatest of units, but it's possible to find units they're better at fighting than marauders (especially unbreakable units). The option to take marks also lets them be specialists in fun ways that marauders cannot. And I think that's the thing. They could certainly be better, but they're not so bad that taking them is automatically incorrect.

And really, this is a problem for essentially all elite infantry. Static combat resolution on cheaper units is really hard to overcome at equal points levels. Let's say you wanted to warriors to be able to win by 1 against the marauders so they're clearly better. Now we need at least 14 to get that extra rank bonus if 5 wide, so we determine that chaos warriors with 2 hand weapons and heavy armour should cost 12 each instead of 17. But say we stayed with hand weapon and shield for the warriors. To win by 1 they need to be 5 wide and have the full rank bonus, which makes chaos warriors cost 9. Worst of all, the marauders could drop 28 points and still have the same result because at 21 models they still have the same result going in which forces the chaos warriors to 8 points—only one more than the marauders (hopefully you agree that's too cheap). And then someone brings 25 goblins with command for 70 points and you're still only winning by 1 despite costing double the points. At least they reliably run when they lose if the general isn't nearby.

[Augrimm]

Agreed. The problem is with M4 elite(thus pricy) infantry in an assault oriented army. If we could lure the enemy into advancing upon us reliably, maybe the point cost would be worthwhile. Marauder's aren't the greatest(heck, empire swordsmen are better due to having the same stats on a smaller base), they are just the best we have for a static block.

If only Mortals got movement enhancing options like the Beasts do (perhaps a banner that increase charge distance, or a Mortal version the the Dark Heart), then maybe a solid unit of warriors would be more viable.

[Kakapo42]

If you want to lure the enemy reliably then you simply need to find the one their General loves most, capture them and sacrifice them to the Dark Gods on a battlefield altar. The opposing army's own love will do the rest. This does of course require a well-placed spy to learn the identity and whereabouts of the General's dearest loved one, as well as some good well-placed cabals of cultists to actually kidnap them, but that just highlights the importance of good intelligence and subterfuge which is important to almost any army.

It is also a plan that many Marauders will likely balk at, especially if the captured loved one is particularly beauteous and/or innocent, which is the biggest problem with Marauder units - they still hold much of their humanity. That would be fine in an army that's fighting for all which is green and good in the world, where that sense of humanity would motivate them to fight on in the face of heavy odds in the name of a just cause, but in a Chaos army they will often be unable to stomach the full scale of the true sacrifices that the Dark Gods demand.

If for whatever reason you cannot locate or capture the opposing General's dearest loved one, then you can fall back on putting them in a position where they have no choice but to come to you. Besieging them in their castle, trapping them in an Ambush or encircling them and goading them into forcing a Breakthrough are all good options for this.

[Avihai]

I've been playing a lot of 6th Edition recently. Running a unit of 30 Chosen Khorne Warriors with 2 Hand-weapons, Full Command, and the Banner of Rage. I run them 6 across. They include an Exalted Champion and occasionally a Sorcerer, for full disclosure. Across my last 10 games, this unit has taken out more than 2x their points in units.

It's not simply the Mathhammer that makes this unit function. My army at 2500pts is made of:
- 1 x Unit of 30 Chosen Khorne Warriors
- 1 x Unit of 12 Chosen Khorne Knights
- 2 x Units of Khorne Chariots
- 1 x Khorne Lord
- 1 x Khorne Exalted Champion
- 1 x Chaos Sorcerer

Given the scale of this army it causes my opponents to focus their forcers on a very small number of units. I am usually able to deny flank, and cause shooting to be diminished by getting all my units into combat asap. What usually happens is that I'm usually able to break a unit or 2 by turn 2, and by turn 3 I can usually tie up their whole army. With 4-6 Warriors putting out 4 attacks per turn, I can usually put out enough wounds to cover the enemy combat resolution.

That being said, it's a lot of points tied up in a single unit. But in the last 10 games, that unit has not been wiped out, and has easily taken out 2-4 units across the game. 4 Attacks at str 4 is nothing to shake a stick at.

[Just Tony]

So your group hasn't figured out how to avoid that unit and focus on destroying the rest of the army? I don't think I have a single army to date that can't force a redirect and position things so I can simply ignore that superbus or commit it to chasing something cheap or feed it swarms. Some people love the challenge of cracking a difficult nut; I'm more of a "total battle" kind of thinker. Usually. As long as I'm well-rested...

[Alarantalara]

I've been playing a lot of 6th Edition recently. Running a unit of 30 Chosen Khorne Warriors with 2 Hand-weapons, Full Command, and the Banner of Rage. I run them 6 across. They include an Exalted Champion and occasionally a Sorcerer, for full disclosure. Across my last 10 games, this unit has taken out more than 2x their points in units.

You do realize that you're not allowed to put a sorcerer in the unit of Khorne warriors right? There's no sorcerer with a mark of Khorne. In fact, given the army list, the sorcerer has to be all by itself.

only characters bearing the same Mark can join the unit

[Alarantalara]

So your group hasn't figured out how to avoid that unit and focus on destroying the rest of the army? I don't think I have a single army to date that can't force a redirect and position things so I can simply ignore that superbus or commit it to chasing something cheap or feed it swarms. Some people love the challenge of cracking a difficult nut; I'm more of a "total battle" kind of thinker. Usually. As long as I'm well-rested...

The challenge here is that there isn't really a "rest of the army" to destroy. There's only 5 units on the field: these warriors, an equally nasty unit of knights, two chariots, and lone sorcerer who can probably hide in terrain if needed.

So you kill the two chariots for 300 victory points and now are faced with a choice. Either avoid contact with both of the big units for the rest of the game while occupying all 4 table quarters to secure the minor victory or try and kill one of them. Note that if you used any sacrificial units to this point, you're likely looking at a draw just by virtue of falling below the 300 point margin you need to win at all. And unless your entire army skirmishes, avoiding all contact with a unit of knights for 6 turns is near impossible. I suppose you could try and get both units to fail charges into terrain and thus be stuck for the rest of the game...

This assumes you're playing standard victory points. In Breakthrough as defender, either you stop/redirect both units or lose. In Capture, you redirect both units away from the objective or lose (you can draw if you happen to have a unit worth at least 400 victory points). Of course, if the chaos army is defender in Breakthrough, they probably can't win because they're too easy to go around/sacrifice characters and monsters to.

[Just Tony]

I'd go after the Knights, personally. After kiting everything in opposite directions I would be able to flee charges to set up counter charges on my turn. I'd also fling anything Stubborn or Unbreakable in there to liven things up. That army is small enough that you should be able to surround it. And if not? Use deployment to either force them to spread out to the point of being unsupported or force him to castle up on one side and bail with anything that's fast enough to bail while potentially leaving a cheap sacrificial unit to aid in the redirect. All that Frenzy makes it that much easier to lead around by the nose.


Maybe I'd fall flat on my ass trying to fight it, but I wouldn't be worried for a second facing that.

[Augrimm]

@ Avihai : If this army is working for you, you are facing inexperienced opposition. You have no frenzy controllers and a small amount of units. Enemy fast cavalry should be able to lead you entire army around by the nose, engaging it only when they feel like it, which will generally be a massive attack into your flank, or a combined charge of multiple hammer units (think 3-4 Bretonnian lances). An army that you can only control during deployment against a foe with 2+ units of fast cavalry is not tactically sound.

Deathstar tactics are fun and effective against the uninitiated, but they tend to fail against opponents who know what they are doing.

Also, the warriors should be spending 4+ turns getting into combat even if unmolested, as you have no way to speed them up and with 24" generally separating the deployment zones, all the opposition has to do is deploy slightly behind that. If they are advancing to take it head on without a plan and just feeding their units into the Khorne meatgrinder, you could probably beat them with an army of snotlings, as they have NO idea what they are doing.

In fact, the only unit that you should be able to get into combat with any reliability on turn 2 in your knights. It should take 3+ for your chariots, and 4+ for your warriors. They only reason that an enemy should give you earlier charges is to lure you into traps.

Now against certain armies this could work well. Ogre Kingdoms and Dogs of War aren't really armies of their own, rather that suppliments for other armies to take (a Doombull lead Beasts army for example, makes a better Big Guy army that OK does). A standard elf army with have trouble making enough of a dent in your units with their archery and all your Khorne marks and Scroll Caddie mage (which is what I assume your Sorcerer is) will make it hard for their magic to make much of a dent in the first few turns. Skaven don't have any fast cav to lure your units around and again, your anti magic will stimmy his warlocks.

But a Gobbo army will eat you alive (making you have to charge through 9 fanatics due to frenzy). Brettonians will be picking your corpses off of their lances. VC will open up your flanks with ghouls and dire wolves and shatter your formations, and after a couple of turns, they can just raise zombie units to redirect your units. Empire will shoot up your knights(while leading them around with Pistoleers) and chariots and then wait for your warriors to walk into range of their volley guns. A Dark Elven army that invests in Darkriders will laugh at your attempts to engage them. And so on.

[Just Tony]

Bear in mind we aren't insulting you or your listwriting abilities, but pointing out that such a force is not nearly the unstoppable juggernaut that it's made out to be.

[mattyfenby]

First off, thanks to Augrimm for kicking this off and for starting the mathing on Chaos Warriors. I love looking at the statlines and points costs of different units and trying to evaluate their effectiveness and possible standing in the ‘meta’ of 6th Edition. It is very interesting that the marquee unit of the Chaos Mortals would be the slow elite infantry that works best in a stay at home/points denial strategy, and then none of the Chaos slots are shooting to support that. Maybe a Daemons list that is designed for a Power Dice/Magic Overload strategy and selects the block of Warriors as a Special slot could be viable for that kind of thing? Or if 6th Edition actually had 4 Chaos Army Books and you could field Chaos Dwarf War Machines in Rare Slots, maybe that would give the Warriors more of a reason to sit at home and be stand ready to receive “whittled” opponents?

The part showing how their points cost is kind of correct but also how they are not worth it at their current points cost is so interesting. While it is counter intuitive that Chaos Warriors are not the optimal block of infantry to take for Chaos Mortals, I think I am somehow OK with it. The fact that they are not optimal, but not glaringly bad, is better than them being broken by being too good or too cheap. And their customization options are fun.

The in character response from Kakapo cracked me up as usual.

As for the Death Star list, I am going to say my obligatory: it definitely depends on the Scenario and how many terrain pieces are considered normal for the club. Alarantalara is spot on with their analysis in my humble opinion. There are definitely weaknesses and vulnerabilities to exploit (kiting/“leading around by the nose” have been discussed already) and I would not classify the list as unbeatable or useful against all compositions but I am not surprised at all that there are games where this works and massacres. Goblins in theory should shred this and demonstrate the efficacy of cheap static CC but animosity and psychology make things extremely… interesting… when I am trying to lead my gitz to glory.

Having said all that, Avihai it DOES sound like your club may be ripe for a coming evolution in your own league’s ‘meta’ if your opponents are marching forward to meet this and getting crushed multiple games in a row. They may soon start to develop ways to slow you down, avoid & shoot you, bait you into failed charges, and get flank charges off against you.

Make sure youre not taking any advice or possible rules corrections from on here personally; the friendly and helpful tone most of us are meaning to convey can easily get lost in text and come off as rude or knowing it all but that is not the intention of anyone here. If you have been accidentally keeping your sorcerer in the Khorne block, now you know you can’t, and that adds another wrinkle to making your Death Star strat work or fail with your club at home. If your club opponents are not yet aware of the baiting rule around Frenzy, you can teach them how it works and I’m sure your games will begin to get more complex as the ‘dance’ begins to play out and charges get trickier for you to pull off in the early rounds. Same goes for March Blocking. It may force you to change your List up or we could end up finding out that there are ways your List is really able to perform that we are just not currently giving it credit for. Thank you a ton for sharing it.

[Kakapo42]

I've been playing a lot of 6th Edition recently. Running a unit of 30 Chosen Khorne Warriors with 2 Hand-weapons, Full Command, and the Banner of Rage. I run them 6 across. They include an Exalted Champion and occasionally a Sorcerer, for full disclosure. Across my last 10 games, this unit has taken out more than 2x their points in units.

It's not simply the Mathhammer that makes this unit function. My army at 2500pts is made of:
- 1 x Unit of 30 Chosen Khorne Warriors
- 1 x Unit of 12 Chosen Khorne Knights
- 2 x Units of Khorne Chariots
- 1 x Khorne Lord
- 1 x Khorne Exalted Champion
- 1 x Chaos Sorcerer

Given the scale of this army it causes my opponents to focus their forcers on a very small number of units. I am usually able to deny flank, and cause shooting to be diminished by getting all my units into combat asap. What usually happens is that I'm usually able to break a unit or 2 by turn 2, and by turn 3 I can usually tie up their whole army. With 4-6 Warriors putting out 4 attacks per turn, I can usually put out enough wounds to cover the enemy combat resolution.

That being said, it's a lot of points tied up in a single unit. But in the last 10 games, that unit has not been wiped out, and has easily taken out 2-4 units across the game. 4 Attacks at str 4 is nothing to shake a stick at.

That is a formidable warband indeed. It is almost completely unified with very few political cracks to exploit, and stowing extra supplies on the Chariots will make it harder to starve out by stranding it in midwinter.

And a unit of 32 warriors of Khorne is surely marked for glory.

You need pay no heed to the other posters on here. It seems like you and your gaming group have worked out a way of Warhammer that brings you joy, and if that is the case then you do not need to change a thing. You have managed a good showing against your rival kingdoms in the region, and for that I salute you.

Remember always that there is far, far more to Warhammer, especially 6e Warhammer, than simple math and metagaming.

Which is why I am so deeply wounded that my comments get laughter when I am being every bit as serious as the math crunchers are.

[mattyfenby]

Kakapo, just in case you were not joking there I will clarify that I am absolutely always laughing WITH you, after having excitedly read your in character posts. I never meant to deride your efforts to Lore Up the conversation, I just perceived it as trolling/humorous in intent when it is in response to someone asking specifically about math-hammer. If there is a text tone issue that has made me come off as condescending or derisive then I humbly apologize and I promise that that was not my intent. I really do sincerely enjoy and am really grateful for my opportunities to see what others are thinking and doing in Warhammer 6th Edition.

[Kakapo42]

Kakapo, just in case you were not joking there I will clarify that I am absolutely always laughing WITH you, after having excitedly read your in character posts. I never meant to deride your efforts to Lore Up the conversation, I just perceived it as trolling/humorous in intent when it is in response to someone asking specifically about math-hammer. If there is a text tone issue that has made me come off as condescending or derisive then I humbly apologize and I promise that that was not my intent. I really do sincerely enjoy and am really grateful for my opportunities to see what others are thinking and doing in Warhammer 6th Edition.

I do not believe you had seriously malicious intent, but in turn I am compelled to clarify that I am not laughing when I write posts, and that my intent was no more humorous than any other poster on this thread - I saw a topic claiming Chaos Warriors are bad, and responded with serious counterpoints on how they are good, and later about how operational problems with them can potentially be addressed. The additional prescriptive goal being to showcase a new alternate way of making these evaluations and illustrate that there is much much more to Warhammer than a set of numbers.

Because really, why should the living, breathing fantasy world that is Warhammer, that is the very thing that makes it fundamentally, distinctly Warhammer and not Kings of War or OPR or 9th Age or Square Base Table Exercise #32, be treated as any less serious or worthy of consideration than an arbitrary number of abstract value?

That attitude that it should be considered less serious or worthy (especially that it should be boxed away into a sad little Loser's Table of a subforum as so many other forums have done) ultimately left me feeling invisible, alone, unwelcome and ultimately horribly depressed for almost a decade, and is a big reason why I avoid more recent tabletop games. It is also, as an aside, something that at least one person in my FLGS has explicitly stated puts them off getting into 6e Warhammer when they otherwise really like the game.

So, when presented with the opportunity to try and steer the discourse in another direction and present an alternate way of seeing things, I try to be the change I want to see.

And since we are supposed to be talking about Chaos Warriors, let's not forget the intimidation value they carry. Few have not heard tales of their diabolical inhuman brutality and horrifying savagery in both battle and in putting towns and cities to the sack. A force comprising of many Chaos Warriors will spread terror before it wherever it marches, and many opposing realms will be persuaded to surrender without a fight rather than face the soul-chilling unstoppable fury of the Chaos Warriors.

All-too-human Marauders, even particularly proficient tribes like the Norse, do not have nearly the same impact on a foe's morale.

[mattyfenby]

I started to edit my post so that it would no longer show me as “cracking up” but then realized that would make the responses after make no sense so I will just say again that I apologize for the misunderstanding and that I love the lore-y side of things, too.

I look forward to your Lore’d Up responses on any math-hammer posts I make in the future and as someone who has played in a competitive league and also participated in a book club I fully believe there is more than enough room to love both aspects of the game (and the arts and crafts angle too, so I should say all 3 really).

All the parts of the hobby are really fun and I hope you feel welcome to start more Lore-y threads on here. I’m pretty certain you would get good faith engagement from people who do not consider it Loser Table talk whatsoever.

[Jonathan E]

I am going to take the Kakapo Corner in this one, flying my own quixotic flag. This has little to do with optimisation or lore but will embrace the original reason for my getting into WFB, and Chaos Warriors when they were their own army list: frugaliteeeeeh!

When I was a young warthog, building armies on pocket money budgets, that Chaos Warrior Regiment Kit was mighty tempting. £10 bought you an actual regiment, with a command group, which you wouldn't get out of the £5-for-X plastic boxes that had been the norm for everyone else. Command group, Champion, the works, no odd model kicking around or suspicious hole in a back rank. The movement trays didn't serve them well, but six wide and two deep they'd get that Hero-quality statline into combat in numbers. And crucially for the frugal gamer, they devoured points. At £10 a month it took me half a year to get 3000 points together (General, Sorcerer, Chariot, Warriors, Warriors, Knights, summonable Greater Daemon for Christmas). Was it optimal? Hell no, I lost every game I played in fifth edition, but that's not the point. I was playing, games of size. If I'd started out with Undead I'd barely have my 25% Troop count together by then (the Vampire Lord being a spendy boy helped, but one Skeleton regiment over two months would still just about get me to 1000 by Christmas).

Points per pound sterling is the only mathematics that matters when you're a dirty little povvo like what I was and I've always been grateful to the Chaos Warriors for giving me my start. (Of course, those kits going up to £12 each as the range expanded was the first time I kicked rocks over a GW price increase, so it's swings and roundabouts to an extent, but shush.)

The army did perform a lot better in sixth, when I had a bit more budget and could spring £20 for some metal Daemonettes to put some hustle into the proceedings. The power combo of Slaanesh/Shadow magic allowing me to pull enemy units forward and hustle my own into them certainly helped matters too. Turd polishing? Maybe. Still worked.

[Kakapo42]

Poor Hobbyists of the world, unite!

The economics of model procurement cannot be overlooked. They are also a big factor in why I have largely revised my stance on Deathstar tactics to "They're fine actually". If I can take a 2000 point army from a couple of Battalion boxes and grow it to 3000 points with just a handful of extra figures, that's far too convenient for me not to do it.

A closely related advantage is that the point-intensive nature also means less figures that need painting before you're combat ready, which is why I always recommend new players start with more elite armies unless they really really love a different specific game faction. All other factors being equal 15 Chaos Warriors are faster to build and paint then 30 Marauders or Gors, which means you can start having fun with them on the table sooner.

Which all goes to show the importance of the grand strategic context when considering units. There are far more factors at play determining a unit's worth than just what number is written at the end of their stat line.

[mattyfenby]

I noticed you guys were saying at the top of this thread that a unit of Chaos Ogres occupies 2 special slots. Where is the rule that states this? I cannot find it in either the Beasts or the Warriors of Chaos Army Books.

[Alarantalara]

That could be confusing without following context closely. I was comparing the various options in the post above and it mentioned "a couple units of ogres". Two units means two choices, no tricksy, hard-to-find rule.

[mattyfenby]

I completely missed that! I just assumed there was some footnote somewhere stating they occupy an additional Special Slot the way some other units occupy additional slots.

Thank you very much for clarifying that for me!